Have Merkel doubles quality improved over the last few years ? i bought a 470 6 years ago and it had some issues , so i eventually sold it .I have been thinking of getting a 500, which was what i really wanted, but they werent making them 6 years ago .Merkels are still reasonably priced, where as Searcys just seem to be going up all the time ,and Chapuis dont make a 500 so they are both out for me. Thanks for any thoughts

I had no problems with my one and now you have the option of ejectors.

I don't think there is a better DR in 500 caliber for the price than a Merkle. I don't know about any quality issues but their customer service is very good. I was unhappy with a 30-06 that I bought two years ago, took it to Africa hunted with it in Colorado it looked like it had been through a war and when I had an issue with regulation two times they took the rifle back and gave me most of my money back. I would not hesitate to work with HK-Merkle or own another Merkle in any caliber. Maybe MJines will pipe-in here, he has a 500 and likes it better than the Heym and Searcy.

Merkels are fine, solid doubles, and I would only expect them to improve.

Last year, Merkel was acquired by Caracal International, a relatively new small arms maker out of the UAE. From what I have seen, the business models for UAE companies take a long term view and are not focused on quarter to quarter results like so many US companies. They will gladly give up short term returns to build market share and a superior product in the future. Emirates Air is a case in point.

If Caracal puts the same efforts behind Merkel as they have with the Caracal Shooting Club in the UAE, look for Merkel really shine in the future.

Caracal has pumped over $25 million to date in the shooting facility that is scheduled to open late this fall, and from the published plans will include simulated live game ranges among other features.

http://www.caracal.ae/home.html

http://www.prlog.org/10035190-caracal-to-launch-the-gul...t-shooting-club.html


http://emiratesone.blogspot.com/2007/10/caracal-news.html

tankhunter --

I have a Merkel .500 gathering dust in the closet, if you're seriously interested. And under $ 10k.

Les

I can only base my opinion on one rifle, but my .500 NE Merkel is a fine rifle. I carried it for two weeks in the field without any problems. I have probably had 250 to 300 rounds through it and it is reliable and accurate. For me, the stock design on the Merkel fits me well therefore I find the felt recoil of the .500 to be less than that of the Heym .470 that I owned. I would not suggest that the quality of the Merkel is akin to the Heym, but that said, I have no knocks against the Merkel and intend to hold on to mine (I traded the Heym). While the quality of the Merkels may not stack up to the Heyms, neither does the price. Not sure what a Merkel or a Heym goes for these days, but used to be approximately $10K for the Merkel and $16K for the Heym. Assuming that is the case, I do not believe that the Heym is 60% better than the Merkel.

My Searcy .500 I have less experience with -- still playing with that one.

My 470 was one of the most accurate doubles I have even been associated with. Besides that, they are solidly built. I wouldn't say that, from an artistic point of view, they compare with some of the $20K guns, but they are built like tanks and do their job well.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I have two merkel double rifles, and have had zero trouble with either of them. I have a 140E 9.3X74R, that I have had for about seven years, and the 140-2, 470NE Safari I've had for about four yrs, and it took two large bull elephant, and three cape Buffalo by it's previous owner, who posts here, and it has served me well. Both are very accurate, and regulate perfectly. Iown sever double rifles, and these two have become my favorite pair for traveling hunt rifles.

I really wanted a 500NE when I bought the 470NE, but the 470 was a deal I simply couldn't pass, and it was a proven rifle, looks absolutely new today.

Would I reccomend Merkel doubles to anyone? Absolutely! Im not saying they are any better than any other rifle, but they are dependable, and cost effictive, considering the pro-rated life span, the price is absolutely a bargain!

tankhunter,

You an also contact KEBCO about Verney-Carron
D/R's which are built by Paul Demas there in
France. www.demas.fr

I'm with Mac and MJ, I have 2 Merkels, a 9.3x74R and a 500. The 500 is a sweetheart. It shoots very accurately with 570gr Woodleighs. No they are not for sale.

A Heym 500 (or 470), unweighted, will be 10 lbs. The same in a Merkel will be 10.5 lbs (470s are 11). Don't know what Mike's guns were setup like but that half pound less on the Heym affects recoil quite a bit. A properly weighted Merkel 500 would be nice.

They are built like a tank. I found a great deal on a new 140 in 470. It is real accurate.
I found that the toe of the stock had a crack that some one had done a poor job of gluing back. When I cut it for the recoil pad it went away. The necks of the chambers of my rifle had a little grove cut in both chambers, the reamer must of had a burr or picked up a chip. It just marks the case very little and has not been a problem. This rifle shoots so good its not worth taking a chance of trying to fix. I added some weight to the stock and used a sander to fit the stock to me. Recoil is much reduced, and it comes to the shoulder just right. I made a cheep but sturdy ghost ring for it, it is much better and faster than factory sights that came with it.

Customer service sucks, I called the gunsmith, to make a appointment to look at the chambers,
he would not take 1/2 hour of his day to do this for me even though I would drive 5 hours
one way to see him. His time must be more important than mine. He told me the only thing he could do was send it back to the factory.
He doesn't have any reamers. He must be just a parts changer with a apron.

It was about 1/2 the price of a thing else out there.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
A Heym 500 (or 470), unweighted, will be 10 lbs. The same in a Merkel will be 10.5 lbs (470s are 11). Don't know what Mike's guns were setup like but that half pound less on the Heym affects recoil quite a bit. A properly weighted Merkel 500 would be nice.

Showbart, My Heym 500 weighs 10lbs 6oz (weighed on UPS scale that was checked and registered one week before I weighed it) so it's only 2 oz's shy of 10.5 lbs close enough for me. .5 lbs is only going to lower felt recoil about 5% I personally could not feel 5% decrease in recoil, someone else might.

I have a 141 in 9.3x74 and have worked on about 4 more for customers. All had very heavy triggers, 7 to 12 pounds and really stiff actions because of heat treat warpage and no fitting by Merkel. For the money their a decent deal but need some tlc. After working mine over I'm very happy with it and used it in Alaska last year and will be using it for Cape Buff in 09'.

quote:

Originally posted by SWD:
I have a 141 in 9.3x74 and have worked on about 4 more for customers. All had very heavy triggers, 7 to 12 pounds and really stiff actions because of heat treat warpage and no fitting by Merkel. For the money their a decent deal but need some tlc. After working mine over I'm very happy with it and used it in Alaska last year and will be using it for Cape Buff in 09'.

All NEW double rifles are fitted very tight and simply requires a little break-in period to work in the action. Any so-called WORK to loosen them is wasted motion. A few rounds, and they loosen up fine, without the removal of any steel that isn't offending,the triggers are set-up heavy, because of a litigeous society!

I have two Merkel double rifles, and have owned several Merkel double shotguns, and the only thing I've ever found that they need,machinically, is lightening of the triggers some, and the addtion of recoil pads. The recoil pad thing is so the new owner, can adjust the length of pull, while installing the recoil pad. The front triggers on the 140E (E = ejectors), is a set trigger, and needs to be set up for the new owner as well. The back trigger should be left with a heavier pull than the front, but the un-set front trigger pull should be about four pounds, with the back a little heavier, to midagate accidental discharge from the finger slipping off the front trigger, hitting the back one.

The Partridge front, and square slot rear needs to be opened up to a wide "V", and the front reshaped into a round bead, or replaced with a bead. Mine shot fine with the factory sights, but I simply like the wide V, and I can't stand the new sights on the 141s, and would be calling a sight supplier as soon as I got one.

The two Merkel double rifles I have are the 140E, 9.3X74R, with set front trigger, and ejectors, and weighs in at 8.5 pounds loaded, which is about right IMO.I don't like the new 141s as I think they are too light, especially chambered for 9.3X74R, I added the Pachmeyer decellarator recoil pad. I've had this rifle for seven years, and have had zero problem with it in any way. I also have a 140-2 Safari, 470NE, with extractors, and a Kick-ese recoil pad, and have had this one for almost four years, and no problem with it either. IMO, they are built like a tank, and shoot like twin barreled target rifles. Though I have several double rifles in several chamberings, these two have become my favorite pair for a traveling hunt. Unlike fine old Britts, these can be replaced if lost broken, or stolen, and IMO, will still be takeing game for my grand childeren!

JD, nothing ever satisfies you.

Herbert , the gunsmith at MERKEL is a trained gunsmith from Germany. THE COMPANY DOESN'T HAVE AN OPEN DOOR POLICY TO EVERYONE TO VISIT! if they did they'd nveer get any work done.

Herbert repairs guns , times ejectors , adjusts trigger pulls.etc, etc. He' not a parts changer as you suggest. But the problem you want him to repair must be sent back to Germany. As he told you.

DID YOU EVER HEAR ABOUT COMPANY POLICY ?

Well they don't change their rules because some guy from Louisiana doesn't like them.

Just because he didn't want to have you visit is no reflection on his training or work.Maybe you talked ot him in your usual abusive manner .

Most people would just send it back as he requested.

Why couldn't you just do that ? It would be an awful lot cheaper than a 10 hour round trip drive.

I am easy to satisfy when I get my money's worth. You tell me if I did.

A new $7500.00 rifle,that came with the toe of the stock broken and poorly repaired before rifle left factory. A problem with both chambers. I called and asked if he had a bore scope,and asked him to look at the chambers. How long does it take to inspect two clean chambers? Less than 5 min, I borrowed a bore scope at a DRSS shot and verified what the problem was. Shipping a gun may not be cheaper than a 10 hour drive. I have learned from experience that UPS does not pay claims. UPS still owes me $600.00 for a broken rifle stock. Search the net and you will see how poorly they pay claims. Pages and pages of unhappy customers not getting paid. I got nothing but the run around.

I studied as a machinist for a year and worked off and on in a gun shop though out high school and college. I can adjust triggers, do stock work,I have barreled several rifles and built PPC revolvers. Sir I am a parts changer and know one when I speak to one.

If he had been interested in fixing the rifle, he could have made a cast of each chamber,Checked Sammie spec's and had Manson make up a pull through reamer to clean up the necks, or done it the old fashion way with some fired case a little polishing compound.

If he had taken the time to look at the rifle and verified the problem,I would have been OK with it. The rifle shoots real well,I just wanted to make sure it was safe.

The Merkel 140 is not a $15,000 rifle. I did not expect it to have the fit or finish of a Heym or Chapuis. It is built strong, I found it too heavy up front, triggers were 7lb and 9lb. Its been easy to load for. It is very accurate. I found the shape of the stock punishing. The rear sight was useless to me.

Being a parts changer I adjusted the triggers to 3 1/2 lbs with no problems (3 hours of my time ), added a recoil comp to the stock to rebalanced the rifle, installed a recoil pad, and ghost ring rear sight. (total parts cost about $250.00 bucks). I adjusted the angle of the comb and sanded in some recoil relief. I went from being the most painfully rifle I shot ( I have shot 416 505's and 550 mags ) to becoming a pussycat no worse than my 416 rem mag that is 2 lbs lighter.

I am very happy with how my rifle handles and shoots now, and would not think twice about carrying it into harms way. It is a solid value for what I have invested.

When I called the importer about the rifle, I was not unhappy just wanted to confirm I did not have a serious problem. When I got off the phone I was pissed off and still am. If there is company policy preventing him from taking 15 min to a hour of his day to look at a problem, it speaks loudly of the company and the man. I don't know him he may be a real gunsmith,that day he responded like a parts changer.

I was thinking about picking up a SXS shotgun during my visit there, I bought a AYA #2 round body instead. I could not be more satisfied.

JD

PS

I only get difficult when someone pisses on me, and tries to put me away wet!

Very good answer JD!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Very good answer JD!

+1

I really do not understand how a "gunsmith" can render an opinion that a rifle needs a "depot" type repair without looking at the firearm.

If Merkel is touting a "customer service" benefit here in the US, one would think that they would actually have some capability to address sloppy manufacturing issues that any other gunsmith in this country could remedy in their own shop.

From the sounds of it, Merkel's customer service has nothing to do with addressing problems, but is more of a tweaking shop to handle apprentice gunsmith issues.

It matters not if he studied in Germany, or if he has a degree from MIT. If the scope of his duties are restricted in the manner described, Merkel has no smithing services outside of Germany. And who wants to run the risk of shipping damage. or waiting a year or more to fix a problem that could be fixed in the US by a qualified gunsmith with the proper tools in an afternoon?

I guess it is a lot easier to collect a paycheck as a gunsmith and have your duties limited to trigger fixing and ejector timing. And if it is Merkel's company policy that anything more difficult than a trigger job needs to go back to Germany, they need to clarify what they mean by a US customer service facility.

Well said Jim, but I'm thinking the problem is not with Merkel, as much as it is with the smith in question! In this case not wanting to even look at the rifle, with the customer willing to drive 5 hours to bring the rifle to him. The fact that the grouves are a factory mistake, would make the examination a cheap fix, if avoided the building a new set of barrels. Merkel would be money ahead, IMO!

First off, if the grouves in the chamber necks are more than scratches, they are not repairable, and would have to go back to Germany for a new set of barrels. If the grouves are very deep, the cutting them out would make the chamber necks too large, and would be a worse problem that leaving them alone!

JD's rifle shoots very well, and I saw no problem with it at 4K, or at Monty's safari shooting school. The cases seemed to dump out fine, and the rifle regulates the bullets side by side, in the middle of a charging buffalo's head, at Monty's charging target!

Though JD, has a ligitimate bitch, if the rifle were mine, considering the way it shoots, I'd leave it alone!
.........................

I can assure you all that Herbert Wolhmuth is by no means a parts changer as discribed. He is origanally from the town of Mariazell in Steiermark and recived his master gunmakers certificate after graduating the gunmaking school in Ferlach. He has been on staff at G.S.I. for at least 25 years and this is the first time I've ever heard anyony speak of him with anything but the highest level of respect.

Herbert is a busy guy and he may have had a heavy workload when he was approched about inspecting the chambers on the rifle. I have been in one of the proof houses in Germany. I can assure you that the chamber is looked at closely and if there was any problem at all the rifle would never have made it through the proof. It is not uncommon for a chamber to be recut at the proof house if it is determand that it is under spec.
Herbert knows that and I can see why he would not want to wast his time with it not to mention saving the customer the long drive.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
I can assure you all that Herbert Wolhmuth is by no means a parts changer as discribed. He is originally from the town of Mariazell in Steiermark and received his master gun makers certificate after graduating the gun making school in Ferlach. He has been on staff at G.S.I. for at least 25 years and this is the first time I've ever heard anyone speak of him with anything but the highest level of respect.

Herbert is a busy guy and he may have had a heavy workload when he was approached about inspecting the chambers on the rifle. I have been in one of the proof houses in Germany. I can assure you that the chamber is looked at closely and if there was any problem at all the rifle would never have made it through the proof. It is not uncommon for a chamber to be recut at the proof house if it is determined that it is under spec.
Herbert knows that and I can see why he would not want to wast his time with it not to mention saving the customer the long drive.

None of that matters to me. The rifle was new when I bought it. The crack in the toe and the groves from the bur on the reamer did make it out the factory. I don't care how busy he is, it his job to deal with these problems. You would think he would at the least verify my claims so the factory could take action to stop such problems from leaving the shop. Bottom line "New double rifle with problems, and I am unable to get 15 min of face time to make sure it was safe. "


JD

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Well said Jim, but I'm thinking the problem is not with Merkel, as much as it is with the smith in question! In this case not wanting to even look at the rifle, with the customer willing to drive 5 hours to bring the rifle to him. The fact that the groves are a factory mistake, would make the examination a cheap fix, if avoided the building a new set of barrels. Merkel would be money ahead, IMO!

First off, if the groves in the chamber necks are more than scratches, they are not repairable, and would have to go back to Germany for a new set of barrels. If the groves are very deep, the cutting them out would make the chamber necks too large, and would be a worse problem that leaving them alone!

JD's rifle shoots very well, and I saw no problem with it at 4K, or at Monty's safari shooting school. The cases seemed to dump out fine, and the rifle regulates the bullets side by side, in the middle of a charging buffalo's head, at Monty's charging target!

Though JD, has a legitimate bitch, if the rifle were mine, considering the way it shoots, I'd leave it alone!
.........................

I called JJ after looking through the bore scope. When I told him 6 shots would touch at 50 yards and it would shoot under 4" at 100 he said leave it alone. He explained any value I loss because it marked the necks cosmetically, I would get back 2X because it was so Accurate.

JD

I agree if you have concerns of any kind about your new rifle then Herbert should inspect it for safty sake. I'm sure if you send it to G.S.I. with this request it will get done. Repairs on the barrels would be done only at the factory but I understand your point that the importer should be willing to look at it first and make a determination weather it needs work or not.
I'll bet if you call and talk to one of the sales staff with your concerns they will address them.

Akshooter
I am past it now, I was able to barrow a bore scope to confirm my suspensions what was causing the problem. All I expected him to do was look at it while I was there. I explained to him I had just had a run in with ups refusing to pay a damage claim, that I would drive it there from New Orleans and be there at his choosing. I was only asking him to stop and look at the rifle while I was there so I would not make a second trip.I could not get to first base. We even figured out that it would take less than a 1/2 hour to inspect it if I came up with clean bores and just a minute for him to walk down stairs to fire factory ammo in it. I made it clear I would not be sending it back to Germany unless it was dangerous. By the time we were done on the phone I was spitting fire. It is a shame that a smith with his background does not care ,or is not allowed to practice his craft. Either way he has been lowered to the the statis of a parts changer, with a cute accent and a apron.

The reason I would not ship the rifle. Two weeks earlier I had a $1500.00 air rifle tuned, on the way back The 600.00 stock got broken.
UPS denied the claim as soon as I walked back in with the packaged which I open in their parking lot because of damage to the box.. They said it was not packed properly. I explained that is was in the same box and gun case that they had OKed for shipping 2 week earlier right there at that counter. They agreed to put in a claim. Then denied it because the gun smith shipped it not me, I proved owner ship. Still refused the claim. The gunsmith had been down this road and refused to get involved. Research showed a history of unpaid claims, and open judgments. My only recourse was to sue the gunsmith, It would have been a waist of time and money.

JD

quote:

...with a cute accent and a apron.

JD- I take it we're not talking about a "French maid" visual here...

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

...with a cute accent and a apron.

JD- I take it we're not talking about a "French maid" visual here...

I never meet him so I am not sure.

JD

quoting jd " it just scratches the case a tiny bit. It is not worth the risk trying to fix "

then why the huge diatribe jd ??

the thread was about the quality of the Merkels, not how their german gunsmith treated you , ok.

in case no one ever told you, it was your attitude which got you un-invited to dssr events.

if your not happy with the rifle sell it.

quote:

Originally posted by ftondrus:

in case no one ever told you, it was your attitude which got you un-invited to dssr events.

Care to explain that one?

I thought the DRSS was a group that welcomed people that owned or wanted to own a double rifle. One's "attitude" is a pretty subjective measure, by any standard.

Tom I don't know what the hell you are talking about. If I remember you looked through the bore scope and you saw the rings on the case neck and what caused them. The only reason I can see you protecting GSI or the gunsmith is for some business interest. If I was less than honest I would not speak of the problems with this rifle, in the best market I have to sell it. How could I benefit from doing so?

If I am such a SOB , why was I spending so much of my time trying to help you get around, hauling your gear and moving your chair because you could not handle the heat due of your health. Hell I even made your a lunch at Monty's so you would not have to walk 30 feet to the cooler. If any of the other DRSS members found something I said or did offensive please speak up now so I can make it right. I do not recall any harsh words with anybody. I found every one fun loving and had a great time. I learned a lot about double rifles that weekend. 400 nitro and Mac and Jim were real helpfully! I do remember staying up late with Bal and doc drinking, none of us got up to hunt the next morning. None of us misbehaved. Compared to Doc and Bal I am a bit of a lite weight. I don't recall dancing with a light shade on my head or pissing in anybodies beer. Nobody showed me a code of conduct or explained drinking was not allowed. So please if any of the other DRSS members took offense speak up.If I owe any apologies they will be made.

If you find this response harsh please forgive me, I am not use to having my character called into question.

Tom my post was about Merkel Quality control or lack off. It was also about lack of a proper response by customer service. I never said the rings were tiny, I said I was told to leave it alone because it shot so well. Fixing the problem could have caused more problems than it would have solved. I spoke well of its accuracy and described how with minimal funds and labor I fitted the rifle to my needs at 1/2 the price of the Brand X. Nothing was candy coated, the rifle is what it is, my experience was as described. I answered the post as well as I could.

JD

Tom, JD, And Jim, I think it would be a good idea for you guys to take this discussion involving DRSS, to a 3 way PM, because this, IMO, will do nothing but hurt one or all of you, if left in the public forum!

Of course, I'm, in no way, sugesting that you don't have the right to air your disagreement in public, but I think it would serve you all well to make it private, because these things seem to take on a life of their own, with folks getting involved who don't know the facts, but offer advice, or condemn one or all of you simply base on what they read here,which is all hear-say!

As far as the quality of Merkel part, that is a ligitimate public discussion, but personal things between you guys does nothing to foster good will to anyone involved, and has nothing to do with the quality of Merkel, one way or the other!

The above is simply my opinion, and not binding on anyone!

One last opinion: Merkel double rifles are sound, well constructed, but leaving some things for the customer, to do, to make the rifle suite him, thereby cutting cost to the customer, while offering a very sound, field grade, hunting double, at a fair price, that almost anyone who really wants a good double rifle, in decent chamberings can afford! This last paragraph ends my participation in this thread!
.................... BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Tom, JD, And Jim, I think it would be a good idea for you guys to take this discussion involving DRSS, to a 3 way PM, because this, IMO, will do nothing but hurt one or all of you, if left in the public forum!

Mac,

No one as far as I can see is attacking the DRSS. I think it was beyond low for Tom to not only drag the DRSS into a discussion that had nothing to do with it, but to use it as a club to take a swat at another AR member when Tom found himself on the losing side of an argument. And my point was, knowing the guys I know, tactics like that are not what the DRSS was all about.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Tom, JD, And Jim, I think it would be a good idea for you guys to take this discussion involving DRSS, to a 3 way PM, because this, IMO, will do nothing but hurt one or all of you, if left in the public forum!

Mac,

No one as far as I can see is attacking the DRSS. I think it was beyond low for Tom to not only drag the DRSS into a discussion that had nothing to do with it, but to use it as a club to take a swat at another AR member when Tom found himself on the losing side of an argument. And my point was, knowing the guys I know, tactics like that are not what the DRSS was all about.

Agreed!

quote:

Agreed! thumb

So is this your real last word on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Agreed! thumb

So is this your real last word on this?