Does the engraving look OK on this bullet. It is a 500 grain NF fired from my 470 K-gun. BTW I have been running penetration test and posting results in the Big Bore forum with Michael458. So far the NF solids kick ass.

That is what a banded solid is suppose to look like. But I'm assuming this thing hasn't hit anything very tough.

1/4" luan, 12" of saturated newspaper, 1 5/8" of treated pine, 60" of saturated newspaper, stopped in a 2 by 6 in the back of the test box

Mike, any update on the 500 NE nd 505 Gibbs bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Does the engraving look OK on this bullet. It is a 500 grain NF fired from my 470 K-gun. BTW I have been running penetration test and posting results in the Big Bore forum with Michael458. So far the NF solids kick ass.

Mike that picture is a perfect example of proper design for use in a double rifle!

I was told the soft points were going to be cut all the way up to the begining of the ogave so they can be used in doubles as well. I thought it had already been done, and I bought a box of the 286 gr 9.3 soft points at the DSC and found when I got home that they had not been modified yet so I can't use them in my double. If anyone out there needs some North Fork softs for a 9.3 bolt rifle, or Ruger No1, I have an unopened box of fifty. They were $85 I'd be willing to trade them for a box of fifty 286gr 9.3 Nosler Partitions, eventhough the Partitions are cheaper.

Mac let me know a bout the northforks--I've got some noslers to trade!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
Mike, any update on the 500 NE nd 505 Gibbs bullets?

Not sure about the bullets, I am not NF Mike, I am just Mike testing Northforks.

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
Mac let me know a bout the northforks--I've got some noslers to trade!

Ed

505ED you have a personal message!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
1/4" luan, 12" of saturated newspaper, 1 5/8" of treated pine, 60" of saturated newspaper, stopped in a 2 by 6 in the back of the test box

Are you sure? There doesn't seem to be even a scratch on it? Northforks are tough but .....

I admire folks that are possessed enough about penetration that they are willing to try to do relevant testing and indeed some penetration testing shows that flat point solids are more penetrating than round nose solids.

I know what round nose solids will do and in some cases greater penetration is a good thing but I'd hate to try to speculate field results from trying to quantify catch box testing.

It is a great pic of the Northfork solid. Just what it is suppose to be. No engraving on the shank. Try to ignore those that try to tell you different.

Woodleighs/Kynochs have been around for how long? 100 years? Getting the job done. However that does not mean there are better ways to do things. The NF may not be better, but early test show they will penetrate.

I stopped testing because I am out of Woodleighs. I fire a Woodleigh then a NF, record results, then change the media. If there are any variances in the media both bullets will see the same variance.

After I confirm load data for AA5744, I am planning on testing solids with an impact velocity of around 1700FPS. On another forum a poster read and believed a solid at 1700FPS will out penetrate a solid at 2150 FPS.

The Woodleighs have all veered off course after penetrating the 2 by 6 set 12" back. I used the 2 by 6 to simulate bone.

After I complete the NF vs Woodleigh test and the 2150 vs 1700FPS test I am thinking about testing with ballistic gel to look at wound channels.

I know it is not the same as animal flesh. I am hunting tuskless this year. If successful I will fire some extra rounds if possible and check penetration.

Here are a couple more photos.



Typical result for Woodleighs so far, 470 Nitro 500 Grain



Same test bullet sideways



First test with 470 Nitro Northfork 72" of straight penetration. Bullet found stuck in 2 by 6 (perfectly straight).



Second test with 470 Nitro 500 Grain Northfork, went 1" further than the previous test. bullet perfectly straight again.

Mike, I admire your patience and persistence in this testing....lots of work. I've always had a somewhat jaundiced view of penetration tests...too much depends on the medium, but penetration tests of "relative" penetration; one bullet against another, same weight and same medium, do tend to strengthen the credibility of the results. Nice job!

Flat nose, aka Northfork & the like, bullets penetrate further and straighter, no argument there. Maybe out penetrate because they tend to stay straight.

They are basically double rifle elephant bullets. It is a wonder anyone bothers to produce bullets for such a tiny market. Thank goodness, huh?

FN solids are "one fits all" - from dik-dik to elephant and you will have hard times to find a better bullet that would enable reasonable shots through thick obstacles stuff...IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
FN solids are "one fits all" - from dik-dik to elephant...

I believe the use on dik-dik makes sense because of less meat damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
1/4" luan, 12" of saturated newspaper, 1 5/8" of treated pine, 60" of saturated newspaper, stopped in a 2 by 6 in the back of the test box

Are you sure? There doesn't seem to be even a scratch on it? Northforks are tough but .....

I admire folks that are possessed enough about penetration that they are willing to try to do relevant testing and indeed some penetration testing shows that flat point solids are more penetrating than round nose solids.

I know what round nose solids will do and in some cases greater penetration is a good thing but I'd hate to try to speculate field results from trying to quantify catch box testing.

It is a great pic of the Northfork solid. Just what it is suppose to be. No engraving on the shank. Try to ignore those that try to tell you different.

Will,

I have recovered several NF solids from elephants that looked like the one pictured. A few have a dent or two in the nose and a few have a bit of riveting, but most are unmarked but for the rifling engraving.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 470drshooter:
Mike, any update on the 500 NE nd 505 Gibbs bullets?

The latest news I have is that the 50 cal material "should" arrive in early March. If they are still using the same supplier, that is not a given. The test rifle is now out being converted to 500 Nitro so that will be the first with the 500Jeff to follow as some point. It is not much of a stretch to also make 505 from the same material (solids only) but I don't know of a rifle being readied for it.

NFMike

What test media does Northfork use for testing solids and softs?

For the time being, I am still doing the testing. I use the Corbin Simtest (spelling) stuff. I have used others of the same ilk. I just prefer that as it smells much better than the others. It can be thinned to pass the BB test but that makes it pretty weak and it won't withstand too many shots that way. I thin it down but short of the BB test. My tank won't hold enough to stop solids as I wasn't thinking of solids when I made it. About the only thing I can learn from shooting solids is how straight it was on impact with the hardened steel backstop but that, in itself, has been educational.

Mike I met the new NF Company crew at DSC and had a chance to chat with them a couple of times.

They seem like a good crew...

NFMike,

would an oiled sawdust medium work? Some time back I built a box of plywood two feet by two feet by eight feet long. I used pegs to put it together. Then I cut a 12" round hole in one end and used old innertube to close the opening. I used a wheelbarrow to soak sawdust in oil and scooped it in the box. The lid was loose, but held in place with tiedown straps. I'd shoot, and use a cheap metal detector to find the bullets. Mamma's old rubber dishwashing gloves worked well to dig the bullets out.
Tape a target over the hole and shoot. After "X" number of shots go fish them out.

Rich

The only artificial things I have experience with are water, clay, and the flexible glues (which is what simtest is). So I can't even give an educated guess as to your media.

I do not know how good NF Solids do in sawdust, but I can say they do great in elephant heads and in giraffe.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I do not know how good NF Solids do in sawdust, but I can say they do great in elephant heads and in giraffe.

My test box is 72" long and it barely is able to stop a 500 grain NF bullets at 470 nito velocity. I will have to add on if I decide to test the Lott.

The NFs do penetrate straight.

Mike70560,

NFMike still does our testing in "ballistic gelatin", but we also test in a "synthetic animal". We use heavy felt paper for skin, a large cow knuckle bone behind it then 3-4 50lb pelletized alphalfa bags stacked end to end. These bags are soaked in water for a day and they become about 150lb. From our testing, the bone is what separates the men from the boys in bullet land. While hard boards and plywood are good media and easily setup, the bone while hard also has a little give and flexibility plus the off angles that the bullet is going to see when stiking it is very important. The grass bags mimic the rumen of a large "dangerous" animal. The grass when soaked becomes inter-linked and really starts tearing at the bullet. It is quite amamzing how it will just ripe apart a poorly constructed bullet.

Rarely do we stop our Flat Point Solid without at least 4-5 bags (each bag is about 3 feet long). We can usually stop the Cup Point Solid within the end of the third to middle of the forth bag.

As you can see, we like NFMike to do our first testing to make sure the design is right then we like to test it in something that "simulates" an animal.

While no test is perfect, they will all show differences in bullet performance when as many variables are held constant. The hard thing for many to realize is the bullet is just part of the equation. One must look at the complete system, but the bullet always gets the blame or praise (kind of like my high school quarterback days) as it is the easiest thing to measure after shooting.

North Fork

This was posted in the big bore but does tend to get lost in the 40 page thread. So here are a couple of post for the Double Rifle guys.

Caliber: 470 Nitro Express
Rifle: Krieghoff Double
Twist Rate: 1 in 20 as measured with a cleaning rod and jag
Brass: Jamison
Primer: Remington 9 1/2M
Powder: Reloder 15

The test box is fabricated from 2 by 6 pine boards and is 72” long.
Test media consisted of ¼” luan, 12” of saturated newspaper, 2 by 6 treated pine (shooting through the 1 5”8” thickness), and approximately 60” of saturated newspaper. Great care was taken to make certain the newspaper was thoroughly soaked in a tub prior to placing in the test bed.
After placing the paper in the test bed excess water was permitted to drain for 30 minutes.
The bullet entered the box at 32 feet from the muzzle.

Bullets tested:
Woodleigh 500 Grain solid @ an average impact velocity of 2065
North Fork 500 Grain solid @ an average impact velocity of 2075

First portion of the test consisted of firing consisted of firing 5 Woodleigh bullets in the test media.

Shot 1: 36” of penetration then came out of the top.
Shot 2: 40” of penetration then stopped at the top of the newspaper.
Shot 3: 33” of penetration then came out of the side
Shot 4: 40” of penetration then stopped in paper, seemed to be straight.
Shot 5: 39” of penetration then came out of the top

The first 12” of penetration was very straight line. I matched the luan from the front of the box to the 2 by 6 positioned 12” behind the luan and the bullet path was straight. Only after traveling through the 1 5/8” of treated pine did the bullet path start to deviate. Please note the bullets entered the wood at a 90º angle. I placed the 2 by 6 to simulate bone.

After this test, five more tests were conducted firing one Woodleigh and then one North Fork. Penetration was measured and the media was changed prior to the next test. While there possible could have variations in density from test to test, one type of each bullet was fired in each lot of paper.

All of the North Fork bullets had straightline penetration the entire length of the box. One actually exited the 2 by 6 on the back of the test bed. The others were stuck in the 2 by 6 or the plywood I added at the rear of the box to make certain the bullet did not leave the box. The engraving looked good on the bullets. None were bent or otherwise damaged.

The Woodleigh bullets performed the same as the first five; straight penetration until reaching the 2 by 6. Average reasonably straight penetration was 20” total. After that the bullet would start turning and exit the box out of the top or hit the side or stop sideways in the newsprint at an average of 41”.

If any variations in results were noted I would have continued testing. The results were very conclusive: In this media the North Fork Solids simply outperform the Woodleigh Solids in heads up testing.
The next test will be the penetration of standard 470 Nitro velocities versus 1650-1700 fps velocity. Both Woodleigh and North Fork bullets will be tested.



Above is the test box with chronograph.




Above is typical damage to the test box caused by the Woodleigh bullets veering off line.




Typical position of Woodleigh bullet found in media.




The above picture is of the typical condition of North Fork bullet after firing.




The above picture is taken from outside of box. It is a North Fork bullet after traveling through 72” of test media.



The above picture is taken from inside of box. It is another North Fork bullet after traveling through 72” of test media.

Here is another mini-test, more or less a torture test for bullets. It was a real PITA to set-up.

This test consisted of 4” of completely saturated newspaper, 1 ¼” of HardiPlank nailed to 1 5/8” of pine all on a 20º angle, 28” of water with 9 newspapers suspended in the water with each paper containing 40 pages, 5/8” of HardiPlank nailed to a another 1 5/8” of pine on a 20º angle opposite of the first setup, and then the remainder of the 72” box filled with saturated newspaper.

This is the description of HardiPlank from there site:

First, what is HardiPlank made of? HardiPlank falls in the fiber-cement siding class, which means that it is a combination of cellulose fibers, along with cement-like materials. In other words, it’s partly wood, partly cement.

It is also flexible.

I fired one .474 500 grain North Fork solid at 2070 FPS IV. It penetrated through everything in a perfect straight line. The measured deflection was less than ½” through the 71” of penetration. It stopped at the back of the box. I thought it would certainly deflect on the hardiplank at the angle particularly after going through 28” of water but did not.

The bullet looked like the other North Forks. It could be fired again.

Tomorrow it will be the Woodleigh’s turn.









Tonight a Woodleigh was fired through the same setup as the NF was last night. (The test consisted of 4” of completely saturated newspaper, 1 ¼” of HardiPlank nailed to 1 5/8” of pine all on a 20º angle, 28” of water with 9 newspapers suspended in the water with each paper containing 40 pages, 5/8” of HardiPlank nailed to a another 1 5/8” of pine on a 20º angle opposite of the first setup, and then the remainder of the 72” box filled with saturated newspaper.)

The bullet entered center of the box, penetrated the first set-up of boards, went through the water, somewhere in the water it went astray. It hit the second set of boards about ¾” from the top with the bullet sideways. It exited out of the top of the board and hit the 2 by 6 I use for a lid.

One thing I did note was that the newspaper I suspend in the water was shredded. There was much more damage than the North Fork generated. Maybe because it was traveling sideways going through the water? It may mean nothing but I did note it.

I may or may not come back to this test. The results were basically the same as the multiple shots I fired in the other media.

Hopefully I can start the velocity test this weekend.

And the last test with very suprising results.

I have completed the first round of penetration testing with different velocities.

Caliber: 470 Nitro Express
Rifle: Krieghoff Double
Twist Rate: 1 in 20 (as checked with cleaning rod and jag)
Brass: Jamison
Primer: Remington 9 1/2M
Powder: Reloder 15 for standard velocity load (approximately 2100 fps)
AA 5744 for reduced loads (approximately 1700 FPS)

The test box is fabricated from 2 by 6 pine boards and is 72” long.
Test media consisted of ¼” luan, 12” of saturated newspaper, 2 by 6 treated pine (shooting through the 1 5”8” thickness), and approximately 60” of saturated newspaper. Great care was taken to make certain the newspaper was thoroughly soaked in a tub prior to placing in the test bed.
After placing the paper in the test bed excess water was permitted to drain for 30 minutes.
The bullet entered the box at 32 feet from the muzzle.

Bullets tested:
North Fork 500 Grain solid

First test consisted of firing consisted of firing 5 North Fork bullets in the test media.

Expected results:
The 2100 FPS load would travel the length of the test box.
The 1700 FPS would travel between 4 and 5 feet.


Actual results:
The 2100 FPS load result was exactly as expected. Every North fork bullets I have fired to date in the 2100 FPS range has performed exactly the same. Straight line and stuck in the wood at the back of the box. (one split the wood and exited, that is why I use scrap plywood to keep the bullets in the box)

The 1700 FPS load surprised me. Average impact velocity was 1661. It penetrated the entire length of the box and the bullets stuck in the first piece of plywood. Penetration wad dead straight. I placed the first piece of newspaper over the bullets stuck in the plywood, none were off more than 1”. The only difference was the bullets were not stuck in the plywood straight like the 2100FPS loads were.

In summary I was very, very surprised with the results. With an extra 430-440 FPS the difference in penetration was the thickness of a ¾” piece of furniture grade birch plywood. The higher velocity round did penetrate more, but not by much.

I was pleased with the consistency of the results. I take great care in setting up the test. Again the traditional load performed the same as the tests I conducted the last couple of weeks. The reduced loads all penetrated exactly the same as each other.

The next test will be Woodleighs: standard velocity versus reduced velocity.



The picture is of the first piece of newspaper placed over the plywood from the back of the box. None of the bullets are more than 1” off line through 72” of penetration.

Mike,

I am headed to Africa in about six weeks with my Searcy .470 NE. Would you mind PM-ing me your loads for the Woodleigh solids? The suggested Searcy load of 106gr of IMR 4831, the Woodleigh, and a Fed 215 primer are an inch high at 50 yds, under 2 inches for 4 softs are about perfect. The solids, no way they are going in the case with that much powder.

thanks,

Rich

I would like the load as well...
I already have the 500gr NF solids for my Searcy 470NE.
Thanks, ND

Mike did the 1700 fps load shoot to the same point of aim as full power loads?

JD

The only shooting I have done with the reduced load has been in the test box. I may try a few next weekend at 50 yards.