As some of you may recall, I have had a Valmet 412 sitting around for about 30 years which I have not used much because of problems making the gun open reliably, and operate without destroying the brass...

(I've owned lots of other doubles, all SxS, so please don't give me a lecture on the qualities of other doubles vs. the Valmet...)

Anyway, a couple of things have happened in the last week. One, I learned about the CCI "military spec" #34 primer with the harder/thicker primer cup, and Two, I read an article in a 1981 American Rifleman on the Valmet and it's intended operating pressures.


So, now I have tried shooting my Valmet with two of its barrel sets, using ammo loaded with the #34 primers and loads tested by powder manufacturers as no hotter than 45,000 c.u.p. (C.U.P.=Copper Units of Pressure).

My report is that the gun works absoultely splendidly with those two modifications in its ammo.

It does NOT perform well in .308 with military issue ammo, or with sporting ammo loaded to 50,000 c.u.p. or higher and with soft primers, such as any of the Federals. But with .308 loads such as from 45 to 48 grains of H-380, the CCI #34 primer, Lapua brass, and 150 gr. bullets, it performs flawlessly.

At the lower end of that range (45 and 46 grains of H-380) it is also remarkably accurate. The bottom barrel if used alone, for instance will shoot groups of approximately 1/2" at 100 yards, with those two powder charges and the 150-gr. Canadian McCracken BTM bullets, of which I have a couple thousand remaining.

With the 9,3x74-R barrels, It performs equally well for function using up to 60 grains of H-4831 behind the Norma 286 gr. Oryx bullet in RWS brass. (Not as accurate, though.) If the loads are increased to 61 or 62 grains H-4831, the gun still opens and ejects very easily, but the firing pins start marking the brass as it opens. That's in contrast to using 55 grains of IMR 4064, which pretty much freezes the action solid.

Having now read the above referenced American Rifleman article, though, I am not surprised. It clearly states that the Valmet people told the NRA that MAXIMUM pressure for which the rifle was intended is 45,000 c.u.p. Much of the data one sees out there for the 9,3 cartridge (and almost all of the .308 factory cartridge loadings) exceed that pressure level.

So, in summary, I would just like to suggest that if any of you are having problems with YOUR Valmet 412, so far as opening, firing pin drag, etc., it may be very well worth your while to use a good computerized loading program to find some loads below that pressure level, or to carefully check ANY loading data suggested to you to see if it has been pressure tested to be at that level or below.

Sounds great! Gald you got it figured out!

Alberta I assume your Valmet shoots the standard 308, hence the pressure problems if you are shooting factory loads. For folks with Rimmed cartridges, like the 9.3x74R and 7x57R if they follow standard reloading manuals, they should not have this problem, right?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Sounds great! Glad you got it figured out!

Thank you, Rusty. I now really enjoy using the rifle and will use it a lot more than in the past. It also explains to me why Valmet never offered the rifle in .375 H&H, even the flanged version of the H&H...they probably knew American handloaders too well to do that.

I am going to get another couple of barrel sets made over the next year or so, as the tax man and my business permit. One will be another set of 7x65-R barrels. For the other, I am having trouble deciding between 7.62x54-R, .30-40 Krag, .303 British, or maybe even the 8x56-R. (I kinda like that .330 diameter bore....would be a sort-of .318 WR, except with a rim...)

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Alberta I assume your Valmet shoots the standard 308, hence the pressure problems if you are shooting factory loads. For folks with Rimmed cartridges, like the 9.3x74R and 7x57R if they follow standard reloading manulas, they should not have this problem, right?
Peter.

Right. One of my barrel sets is the standard .308/.308, and another is the standard .30-06/.30-06, in both of which factory loads are above recommended operating pressures. I am really surprised Valmet chose to chamber for either of those when with the standard .30-40 Krag it would have been just as good a hunting round for most purposes, and wouldn't have created the pressure problems commonly caused by using standard factory .308 or .30-06 ammo.....

Alberta, I had a Valmet 412 years ago that was factory chambered for 375Win/375Win, with a 1 in 12" twist. It shot flawlessly, with factory, or factory equivalent handloads. I re-chembered the barrels to 375 JDJ, and
re- regulated the barrels. It shot very well with this cartridge as well, so I soldered the regulation jackscrews to be permently regulated and laid ribs on the barrels. That rifle was a tack driver, and accounted for several Muledeer, moose, and caribou, without even a hint of a problem. I sold that rifle, and have been sorry ever since! That thing was the handiest pickup, and canoe rifle I ever owned. I still have a Valmet lion double 12 ga, that I've been mulling with the idea of building a set of barrels chambered for 30-30 Win, with 18" barrels for a canoe rifle, or getting a pair of fully rifled 12 bore barrels from Tomo577, too build a "GO INTO THE WEEDS"follow up rifle with Irons express sights, short barrels, and regulated for single molded 12 bore bullets, in brass cases!

Good luck with you Valmet system!

AC,
Glad to hear you got it ironed out. I've had mine for years and love the system. I'm sure my son will now enjoy it as much as I do.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Alberta, I had a Valmet 412 years ago that was factory chambered for 375Win/375Win, with a 1 in 12" twist. It shot flawlessly, with factory, or factory equivalent handloads. I re-chembered the barrels to 375 JDJ, and
re- regulated the barrels. It shot very well with this cartridge as well, so I soldered the regulation jackscrews to be permently regulated and laid ribs on the barrels. That rifle was a tack driver, and accounted for several Muledeer, moose, and caribou, without even a hint of a problem. I sold that rifle, and have been sorry ever since! That thing was the handiest pickup, and canoe rifle I ever owned.:

That sounds like an interesting conversion. I should have bought a set of those barrels when they were around at $400 the set. Could perhaps have converted it to standard .375x2-1/2" Flanged like several of my Mausers and Mannlichers. Would have been within pressure design limits and would have been a nice companion-gun to the others (though I no longer have them now either).

quote:

I still have a Valmet lion double 12 ga, that I've been mulling with the idea of building a set of barrels chambered for 30-30 Win, with 18" barrels for a canoe rifle, or getting a pair of fully rifled 12 bore barrels from Tomo577, too build a "GO INTO THE WEEDS"follow up rifle with Irons express sights, short barrels, and regulated for single molded 12 bore bullets, in brass cases!

Good luck with you Valmet system!

Thanks for the kind wishes, Mac. I can strongly recommend 12 gauge rifled barrels. Have owned a couple or three double rifles orginally built with 12 gauge barrels.

I don't know which length Tomo's barrels are chambered for...are they even chambered, or is that left up to the "assembler"? I wouldn't mind having a set of those myself, but likely never will. If I was going to go that route again, I think I'd consider chambering for 2" or 2-1/4" brass shells. That way I'd never have to worry too much about what someone else might shove in it some day. (I know there is no 2-1/4"shell, but if I was doing my own chambers and loading my own brass shells, which I would be, there's no reason I couldn't make them that length....at least not off the top of my head.) And I still have enough brass shells around.......

Take care,

AC

CANUCK

glad you found out what the problem was and solved it !

but what a bummer to find the manufacturer sold a rifle that wouldn't function with factory loaded ammo ??

maybe eveyone there handloads and don't buy ammo ?

or maybe they just buy them to look at and not shoot ?

strange deal, very strange.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
CANUCK

glad you found out what the problem was and solved it !

but what a bummer to find the manufacturer sold a rifle that wouldn't function with factory loaded ammo ??

maybe eveyone there handloads and don't buy ammo ?

or maybe they just buy them to look at and not shoot ?

strange deal, very strange.

Yeh, I don't understand that deal either. But, at the time this gun was made and I bought it, I seriously doubt much .308 ammo was being used in the "eastern blok" countries (mid-1970's). But, I would have thought the makers would have been very familiar with the .30-06 which was around before there even was an eastern blok.

Hard to conjecture what might have been lost in the market suggestions and discussions in translation. After all, the .30-40 Krag which IS in the right pressure range for the gun with factory ammo, WAS called at one time ".30 U.S." and ".30 Gov't" (I have cartridge cases headstamped both ways). One guy could be saying ".30 gov't" and anther guy thinking "Da, .30-06". Not likely, but I guess anything is possible. Sometimes it would be nice to be a fly on a historical wall....so long as a guy could instantly change back when the guy with a rolled up newspaper showed interest.

Still, all's well that ends well, as Willy Shakespeare once said. And I'd guess a guy could use some fairly warm loads, depending on the specific gun and its tolerances, so long as he didn't use enough of them to abuse things or inhibit function. The useful lesson to me is, if any of my future Valmet barrels don't open correctly or the firing pins hang up, I'll try reducing the load pressures no matter what the chambering is.

Best wishes,

AC


BTW, Tomo, if it isn't inappropriate, how about a little repeat info on your 12 gauge barrels...what is the skinny on them?

Hi guys!

Not whanting to be a piss ant or troll or otherwise and beeing truly glad for the come around that your Valmet has made Albert, finns, the makers of the Valmets prior to them being made in Italy will not say "Da", never ever..

A finn might say "Jaaa" or "Kyllä" to anser yes and or sure, or "Hmmmhhrr"or "ssssoouuuppphhh" if one prefers the nonverbal versions of yes.

Do remember that a nation of 3 million finns stod their ground in the Finnish winter war against 160 million russians.

Best regards Chris

There is wery little love lost between the two countries still today.

I was wondering about that reference to the Eastern Bloc myself! As far as I know, Finland is not part of the Eastern Bloc!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I was wondering about that reference to the Eastern Bloc myself! As far as I know, Finland is not part of the Eastern Bloc!

I was not really referring solely to the makers, but to their neighbors, who I would presume (possibly incorrectly) made a majority of the market for the doubles and singles they may have produced...and thus may have had some input in the meetings when it was decided for which cartridges they would chamber.

And, I don't recall the makers as having been Beretta or any other Italians in the 1970's when my gun was produced, though I suppose I could misunderstand that...but my gun does say "made in Finland" on it.

Anyway, I do recall quite well the onset and outcome of the Winter War, having spent almost every evening with my father listening to short-wave radio reports of the war during its fighting. Matter of fact, I still have that radio (an ancient Zenith)!! Plus, I lived near a community of Finns in Saskatchewan and worked with them every day for about 5 years. They certainly hadn't forgotten, either.

I was "speculating" as to what could have tanspired (at least partly tongue in cheek humour, with a big grin too). I don't know, and doubt anyone still actively working for Valmet now does either...at least not anyone to whom I or any of my acquaintances now have direct contact.

It is still a mystery to me why they chose to chamber 412 barrels for cartridges intended to run at 50,000 c.u.p. in a rifle they told the U.S. NRA they had intended for maximum working pressures of 45,000 c.u.p.

And, bottom line is, so long as I now know how to make mine work well, it really isn't very important to me beyond simple curiosity.

I also had the origenal, Finnish LION 412, befroe even SAKO started makeing them, and later they were sent to Italy where they are made today. I never had a problem with mine, however!