.406, .408, .410, .411...For God's sake...Why so many diameters within one caliber?

What is the "TRUE" 450-400 bullet diameter?

I'll be "Slugg'n" the bore on my rifle for exact specs, but was just curious about this "variety".

Also, what's the downside to shooting say .408 bullets through a rifle with .411 bores??

Who actually knows....Mark?

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
What is the "TRUE" 450-400 bullet diameter?
JW

For the 3" it's .4105"

It is amazing how you guys find this stuff.

quote:

It is amazing how you guys find this stuff.

Amen to that Bill!


THANKS!!!
JW

My bore is .411. When Woodleigh bullets were NA(like usual!) some .408's were in stock and for the Hell of it, I bought them. I loaded them with my usual load and got normal sized groups and ran them over the Chrono. Much to my surprise, the velocities were basically the same. I guess gas leakage cancelled out less friction! For target use, I have no problem with them, but I would not use them on DG. Looking at the print, I wonder if Imperial did the same thing Hornady is doing about the two major bore sizes, settle on one for both. Lee.

Jeff:

It is whatever it is. You can only go by what the bores slug. With respect to the rifles, ALL of the British rifles are all over the place, regardless of caliber. I've never owned one that was what it was supposed to be. The idea that the .400s are unique in this regard is a myth.

David Little says that the original factory drawings show .408" for the 3 1/4" and .411" for the 3". It was a bad mistake to use different diameters. In the gunmaker's shops, a .400 blank quickly became a ".400 blank" with the difference being ignored - so you get different diameters in rifles of the same caliber, even from the same maker.

A "standardization" convention was held under the auspices of the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce in 1913. Standard bullet diameter for both cartridges then became .410" (+/- .0005" as shown in the drawing above), and remained so until Kynoch stopped production in 1972. All of the bullets I've pulled from Kynoch ammo in both calibers have been .410".

Today, current CIP standard is .410" for both. Current Kynoch 3 1/4" is loaded with .408", and Kynoch is trying to get the CIP standard for that cartridge changed. No, I don't have any idea why everyone but Hornady and Ruger are using .411" for the 3", as that is not current standard and has not been for 95 years.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express: Given what you just wrote, if you acquire an older English SXS in the 3" designation (or for that matter, a new Searcy), and given the soldered connection between the two barrels, are there any issues or problems created by using a .411 bullet (Woodleigh soft point) in a .409 or .410 bore such as causing solder splits like what might occur if you were to use a monometal bullet in a SXS rifle ? Thanks for your help.

Frank

I doubt it - I shoot both bullet szes in my guns
and have never had a problem.

It was the US who started the .408 thing anyway
as someone started making .408 barrels.

In regards to old gun bore measurements,
they range as originally stated from .406 - .413
but the Majority seem to be .410 ish !

I have also noticed that most people who
measure them seem to Undermeasure them,
maybe partly because they don;t do it from Edge to Edge of the raised part of the lead slug which takes into account the odd number of grooves / lands.

Frank:

No, there shouldn't be. Keep in mind that a lot of Kynoch .410" bullets from factory ammo went down .408" and smaller bores on a regular basis and, like I said, this wasn't confined to the .400s. The trouble did't start until the advent of monometals. Also remember that Woodleigh .408" are available (which is what I shoot), and Hornady .410" will soon be available. If you get a rifle with an odd bore size, it's a simple matter to size down with a die from Corbin or similar.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
It was the US who started the .408 thing anyway
as someone started making .408 barrels.

That isn't true at all. Nobody here has ever made .408" .400 barrels. I was speaking British guns anyway. There are a LOT of British .408" .450/.400 doubles of both case lengths out there. I see as many .408" as I do .411". That's part of the reason that Barnes (in their old Original line) and Woodleigh have always made both diameters. Also, Kynamco (the new Kynoch), who loads Woodleighs, demands both diameters as well, because they load .408" in .450/.400 3 1/4" and .411" in .450/.400 3", as that's what their original factory drawings show.

The suggestion that gunmakers like J. J. Perodeau don't know how to slug a bore is absurd.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400

I wasn't talking about people like jj,
I was talking about general shooting
population.

And as for .408 bullets, don't worry
about it, couldn't be bothered aguing.

Hornady makes a 300 gr for the 405 Win. It actually is .411 at the base and tapers slightly as it goes forward.

I have a Jeffrey .450-.400 3" that one bore slugged .4095 but didn't slug the other. Had it about 4 years, always shot Woodleigh .408's in it and has done well with them. Took one tuskless ele with it. Was going to Moz next year to use it on Buff but looking like I may have to cancel based on health issues. If so, I will sell the gun. Any rough ideas what it is worth today ? Know it is hard to tell without photos but don't know how to post them. I can honestly tell you it has great wood, no dings or scratches, and in overall excellent condition. Have 150 rounds of brass an couple hundred Woodleigh bullets. I was there hunting with Chifuti when they did "Boddington on Buffalo". Craig examined it, said it was built around 1915 in London. Saw him at a DSC meeting several months ago and he asked me about it. Says he wants to buy it when I get ready to sell, if he can affored it at the time. Please, ballpark figure of its value. Thanks, Mike

If your shooting an English rifle then slug the bore..Those guys did a lot of guessing, and a chamber cast is also very wise..then you know where you be!!

If its a Searcy, ask Butch.

According to Champlins, where I bought my 450/400 3 1/4", I was advised to use .408 bullets.

Whatever British 450/400 you have you should slug both bbls, and choose your bullets accordingly.

I have shot a fair amount of game with my 450/400 3 1/4"...
Deer, several wild pigs, black bear, 2 caribou, warthog, zebra, baboon, cape buff, bull elephant, and lion.

It is a great calibre for a double.

Probably the best for the "Modern Man".

Especially if scoped.

I used the scope, a S&B 1-4 in claw mounts, on the warthog. baboon and lion.

My Webley built Manton 400 3" slugs .408 and my Jeffery 400 3" slugs .411

Both were slugged by JJ.

Bottom line:

It is what it is or it are what it are!