Ivan Carter compares a Double versus Bolt Action Rifle on a very Interesting Video on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-WJcYpNR0Q

YEAH!! What Ivan Said!!!

AMEN Brother; and it needs to be a side by side. (That will make their keyboards smoke.)

"Why a Double Rifle?"

Because they are super distilled cool on steroids with jet fuel.......duuuhhhhhhh!!!!!

Brett

Why a double rifle?
So I don't have to play golf.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Why a double rifle?
So I don't have to play golf.
Cal

Between the Clown and the Windmill I gave up the sport years ago

Oh crap, now I want a Heym

As we know Heym offers bolt action rifles too, in D/G calibers. Ivan Carter is clearly saying that
he wants a D/R for close work on the dangerous stuff, and that he's chosen Heym as his source.

If Ivan is out there, a few questions -

I'd love to hear a brief run down from him on double calibers for DG and how he rates them. Especially, what he uses and why, what he thinks of the 450/400 and is it ever not enough, is the 500 really overkill and what about the greater than 500s.

Many thanks in advance..

Shack, Ivan is probably out hunting right now, and I don’t presume to answer for him, but I know that he has two double rifles made by Heym. One is the rifle he lost in the river for four or five days. He spent those days diving in hippo and croc pool trying to find his rifle. That rifle is chambered for 450NE and has now been refinished by Heym. He also has a new Heym 600NE double he uses for elephant and for follow-up on wounded dangerous game. He may have others as well, but Heym is his choice, and a good one, IMO.

Mac, if memory serves, he has a Heym 88/BSS (sidelock) .300 Win. Mag. from a couple years ago.

quote:

Mac, if memory serves, he has a Heym 88/BSS (sidelock) .300 Win. Mag. from a couple years ago.

Not 100%.

There is (I think since a good year) a Heym Ivan Carter Set availeble.

One stock and sytem in the highes qualty, with:

a.) a db barrel set in .450 NE
b.) a db barrel, 300 Win Mag, with schope
c.) a db shootgun

It is an great one, I had handle one at the shooting range.

Watching that video makes it abundantly clear that a double is the prefered weapon in the close Jesse. A bolt rifle can get you killed in there.

465H&H

Because they don't make a triple?

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

Mac, if memory serves, he has a Heym 88/BSS (sidelock) .300 Win. Mag. from a couple years ago.

Not 100%.

There is (I think since a good year) a Heym Ivan Carter Set availeble.

One stock and sytem in the highes qualty, with:

a.) a db barrel set in .450 NE
b.) a db barrel, 300 Win Mag, with schope
c.) a db shootgun

It is an great one, I had handle one at the shooting range.

I don’t know anything about a 300 Win Mag double, but I know he has the 450NE and 600NE Heym doubles. I’ve personally handled both rifles.

On the need for a double in a close quarters combat, Buzz who uses a bolt rifle when talking about firing a warning shot to turn an elephant said it best:

“You never fire a warning shot unless the elephant is far enough away so you have time to work the bolt and get off another shot to the brain before he gets to you!”,and that shot better be spot on target, for, unless you are very lucky, you will not get another.

This tells you that it takes too much time to get off more than one shot with a bolt rifle in a close charge. The double is at it’s best at the "in your face" encounters.

The double is not limited to those short range encounters, however. The double rifle is a fine hunting rifle for all but the very longest range shots where pin point accuracy is a must. Even then on large animals like the cape buffalo or elephant that is wounded and quickly leaving the area, long follow-up shot are valuable as well. As long as a wounded dangerous animal is on his feet and in sight, that double rifle should be spitting bullets into him.
........................................................................

Why a double?
Because you can't do a double tap with a bolt gun.

What about the 450/400 for dangerous game. I know what Taylor said. But what say you here.

Also, where does all this leave bolt guns like the 458 to 500 calibers? Distance shots on dangerous game? Or for use by those who don't trust their ability to do it in two shots and are willing to take their chances with working the bolt? Or for those who are leaving follow up shots to their PH?

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
Why a double?
Because you can't do a double tap with a bolt gun.

Even four shots on a cape buffalo in close quarters is just as fast or in most cases faster than a bolt rifle, and most big bore don't carry more than four rounds. Of course, as I've always said, the contest is decided by who is doing the shooting in either type of rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
What about the 450/400 for dangerous game. I know what Taylor said. But what say you here.

In a close charge with a cape buffalo, the 450/400NE is as capable as any other round! In that scenario the only thing that counts is hitting the CNS, and that is easier with a rifle with penetration enough to get to the vitals, and with a recoil that lets you get off the next shot very quickly. A ten pound rifle with light recoil and good penetration is why Taylor liked this rifle!

quote:

Also, where does all this leave bolt guns like the 458 to 500 calibers? Distance shots on dangerous game? Or for use by those who don't trust their ability to do it in two shots and are willing to take their chances with working the bolt? Or for those who are leaving follow up shots to their PH?

For those using a large bore bolt that don’t trust their ability to get the job done in two shots, They surely would not get off those first two aimed shots faster than a man with a double, and that same man with the double will be just as fast for the third shot, and far faster for the fourth shot, all aimed. After that the bolt man would be dry in any case.

You see it takes a bolt rifle man seven distinct moves for every shot after the first shot before each additional shot can be taken, and only one move for the second shot from a double, a change of trigger! After shot two, the reload of a double requires only six moves to get off shot three, and only one move to get off shot four! All those moves while, fighting off nerves. Everyone calls attention to the fact that the double rifle must be re-loaded to get off shot three and four but all four shots take far less movements to accomplish than with a bolt rifle. Every extra movement opens the door to making a mistake

IMO, anyone who leaves the follow-up shots to the PH may be in real trouble if the PH is the first one hit by that buffalo leaving the client to finish things before the buffalo kills the PH !

All who pay the piper for a chance to get in close to dangerous game should, IMO, be prepared to do what it takes to get that job done with their choice of weapon as if hunting completely alone! However if you think you have an advantage with a bolt rifle over a good man with a double, then by all means go that way.

I hunted most of my first 21 year of my life with bolt action, lever action, and single shots, and I must say I did quite well with all three, and have taken dangerous game with all of them. At age 21 I bought my first double rifle, and found I do even better with it as far as getting off AIMED shots very quickly than with a bolt action and can beat most bolt rifle shooters for the first four shots in timed contest. The shots, no matter how fast, are useless if they don’t hit what you are shooting at. With this in mind you must remember dangerous game is only dangerous at close range. If you shoot game at 100, or 200 yds it makes little difference what the game is or what rifle you use because he isn’t dangerous at that range.

In any event it is the choice of the man/woman who will be doing the shooting! The key word here is CHOICE, but IMO better than just CHOICE is one that is an INFORMED CHOICE! IMO. A person who thinks the four shots in a bolt magazine rifle is a great advantage is not INFORMED.

.................................................. ........................... Now open up! My fox hole is dug!

Well said. And how would you feel about the 450/400 on elephant? Would you be comfortable with it? Be it frontal brain or other.

..you see, I just happen to have that particular weapon.

I also have a 416 rem mauser, and this has me now wondering what its highest and best use is...maybe it needs to stay home or stick to large plains game?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Oh crap, now I want a Heym

Oh well...and now I just want another double rifle..

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Well said. And how would you feel about the 450/400 on elephant? Would you be comfortable with it? Be it frontal brain or other.

..you see, I just happen to have that particular weapon.

I also have a 416 rem mauser, and this has me now wondering what its highest and best use is...maybe it needs to stay home or stick to large plains game?

First let me say I'm not an elephant hunter, but have considerable amount of experience with a 450/400NE 3 inch double rifles. With the long .410 solid that has a reputation of deep penetration, I wouldn't hesitate shooting an elephant with one. Personally I would rather have the 450/400NE double than a 416Rem Mag bolt rifle for the job. Of course a double 500NE would be better than either one!

quote:

Of course a double 500NE would be better than either one!

Copy that. Except for one thing. Let's see, how to put it. Well, it's like this...one of the wise guys at the gun club said to me, "don't you know, guys your age shouldn't be shooting guns like that"...

It's a question of whether you want to kill it or stop it. The 450-400 has a reputation for being a good penetrator, so killing the ele isn't a problem. I would take my .450-400 in a minute. HOWEVER, if it is on top of you and you want to make it stop, a .500 or 577 might be better. Or not, depending on where you hit it. (Disclaimer; never shot an elephant.)

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It's a question of whether you want to kill it or stop it. The 450-400 has a reputation for being a good penetrator, so killing the ele isn't a problem. I would take my .450-400 in a minute. HOWEVER, if it is on top of you and you want to make it stop, a .500 or 577 might be better. Or not, depending on where you hit it. (Disclaimer; never shot an elephant.)

First let me say I’m not an elephant hunter but have seen a number of them shot. In my experience elephant are easier to turn than a buffalo with a large slap in the face, even if the CNS is not hit.

Stopping,however, is anything from TURNING to KILLING an animal! Let me say here that if I wanted a dedicated ele rifle nit would be a 500NE double rifle, but I wouldn't be opposed to hunting an elephant with a 450/400NE double.

To stop permanently by dropping him one must hit the CNS or break a very large bone putting him down till he can be finished. Any thing that will penetrate in a straight line to the CNS will stop the animal in its tracks. I agree that a large bore is more likely to do that with a close hit, or breaking the supporting bones of the leg or hip.

Cape buffalo, on the other hand, Capstick said it best in an interview with SPORTSMEN ON FILMs Ken Wilson.

” Once a cape buffalo puts together a concentrated charge, your options have been made wonderfully clear! You kill him, or he will kill you!” Expecting him to turn because you have a big rifle is pure folly!

............................................................................................................................................

Why? Because some folks are not smart enough to work a bolt action or pump action rifle.

Why? Because some folks think having two triggers on one gun somehow makes everything better.

Why? For a lot of folks their ego only allows for two shots, everthing else is just excessive.

Why? Some folks are not all that great of shots, but just looking good out there (with a double) makes up for it.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Geez, Larry! I always thought you were a smart and intelligent guy. Just had to prove me wrong, HUH?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Why? Because some folks are not smart enough to work a bolt action or pump action rifle.

Why? Because some folks think having two triggers on one gun somehow makes everything better.

Why? For a lot of folks their ego only allows for two shots, everthing else is just excessive.

Why? Some folks are not all that great of shots, but just looking good out there (with a double) makes up for it.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

That's way too much logical thinking for a guy who shoots DR's.

Md - Thought as much, but couldn't pass up a chance at a little (very little) humor. Boring here waiting another month for elk season to start.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Why? Because some folks are not smart enough to work a bolt action or pump action rifle.

Why? Because some folks think having two triggers on one gun somehow makes everything better.

Why? For a lot of folks their ego only allows for two shots, everthing else is just excessive.

Why? Some folks are not all that great of shots, but just looking good out there (with a double) makes up for it.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

That's way too much logical thinking for a guy who shoots DR's.