Info
Merkel 470 NE
Hornady DGX 500 gr
H4831-sc [Min-95.6gr; max 112 gr]
Federal nickel plated brass
Federal 215 Large magnum rifle primers
Sights set to 100 yds (D'oh!!!)
Bullets NOT crimped

Range result:
95.6 grains:
Right barrel - 4.5 inches right, 2 inches high
Left barrel - 2.5 inches high
[10-15 pieces of unburned powder remained in the barrels]

97.6 grains
Right barrel - .6 inches right, 2 inches high
Left barrel - 2 inches high
[2-3 pieces of unburned powder remained in the barrels]

OK, "Stupid Question Amnesty" requested.
Will crimping the bullets have an effect on the preasures, groups, or results?
Will switching to jamison brass have an effect on preasures, groups, or results?

My thought is that yes, it will have an effect, but it will not be enough to make a huge diffrence.

Vacation this weekend, then back out to the range to continue the adventure. Chrono will be set up but only after i can assure myself i will not shoot it.

Not enough information.
1. What range are you shooting at? IMHO 100 yards is too far for open sights, load testing.
2. What kind of rest, technique are you using?
To answer your question I have not found that crimping had an appreciable effect on POI or groups. I used to not crimp, but now I do, just because when I hunt, I would crimp.
I don't believe that switching brass would have a significant effect.
FWIW I would suggest setting up two targets and shooting two rounds from the left barrel on one, and two from the right on the other, at 50 yards from a soft rest.
You should also use a chronograph to determine actual velocity achieved. Then use the powder adjustment techniques described on this forum to achieve the desired group POI AND velocity. This may mean changing powders.
Peter.

It was at 45 yards. Standing rest. 4x4 wooden beam across, sandbags on top of beam then hold rifle normally and place front hand, palm up on the sand bags. This results in my form being exactly like it would be in the field / off handed. The only issue i have is that i am a bit short for the rest so I have to shift my weight to the balls of my feet to gain height. Not standing on my tip toes but streaching to my limit.

In the 470 when using H-4831, you will need to get up to 106 to 110 grains to reach regulation velocity.

465H&H

I always got better groups when using Reloader 15. The crimping should not have any appreciable pressure increase in your rifle. Using the Reloader 15 powder in my Rigby 470, the bullet holes for right and left barrels actually touched at 40 yards. I had similar results with my 476 Westley Richards.

Congrats on your double. It actuallyswounds like you have found the load. Good news is that your gun is properly regulated in vertical plane. Many new guns aren't today and it is very hard or impossible to fix with loads. You generally want the right barrel to shoot slightly right and the left slightly left. If they do that an inch or so at 50 yards the bullets will fly parallel out to longer distances. You do not want them to cross. As to being 2 inches high, this is a function of what sight picture you use with the iron sights. I forget what the Merkal uses for sights but you just need a slightly higher front sight for your preferred sight picture. For what it is worth, I tend to like rl-15 better in my doubles as well. Feels like less recoil impulse for the same velocity

Your sight picture? Are you holding dead on?
perhaps the rifle was regulated with a modified 6 o'clock hold?

Try holding just below the center of target.
If you use RL-15/Norma 203B the use of filler will give you very uniform velocities. Felt recoil will be reduce with the RL-15/203B.

I have a PDF of an article by Ross Seyfried. If you email to me your email addy I will send it to you. rkmojo@aol.com
It will answer questions about RL-15/203B and filler.

Rine, I'm not a double gun owner, but I did stay at a Holliday Inn last night, so maybe this helps...

I like to crimp all hunting ammo, unless its going in a singleshot; I've had bullets creep forward/backwards under recoil and cause a HUGE problem in rifles and handguns. I'd hate to fire one barrel several times while hunting and have the round in the other barrel get stuck in the throat or rifling.

I dont have my copy of "Any Shot you Want" in front of me and dont know whats the max on H-4831 in the 470, but if Jamison brass is much thicker than the Federal and your loads are close to max it could Definately cause pressure spikes, therefore effecting groups and results.

I said all that to say changing brass could change everything, or nothing. I know the reloading manuals all say when changing ANY COMPONENT to drop back 10%, but what do they know ???

I have some Jamison brass in 416 Taylor I plan on using if I ever go overseas, but havent loaded it, using Winchester brass so far.

If you can live with the velocity of the 97.6 gr load I'd say its damm near perfect; 2 inches high at 40 yards should put it dead on around 80 yards maybe, and is certainly shooting "Minute of Buffalo".

Good luck and keep us posted.
Eterry

Mine shoots decent at 107 grains of H4831SC

oh and I would not personally attempt to work loads up on a double without the use of a chrono.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Your sight picture? Are you holding dead on?
perhaps the rifle was regulated with a modified 6 o'clock hold?

Try holding just below the center of target.
If you use RL-15/Norma 203B the use of filler will give you very uniform velocities. Felt recoil will be reduce with the RL-15/203B.

I have a PDF of an article by Ross Seyfried. If you email to me your email addy I will send it to you. rkmojo@aol.com
It will answer questions about RL-15/203B and filler.

Unless ordered differently, ALL Merkel double rifle sights are cut for a tight six o:clock hold at the distance on the sight! My 470NE Merkel has the standing sight cut for a six O:clock hold at 50 yds, and the flip-up cut for the same hold at 100 yds. One other thing the Merkel sights are designed to be used much like a pistol sight with the top ot the front blade level with the top of the back sight with an equal amount of light on each side of the front blade.

When working up a load for a double rifle one needs to fire four shots from each barrel,marking each shot by number and barrel, with each shot from each barrel being fired from cool barrels. Then find the CENTER of each barrel’s individual four shot group. If that center of each barrel is roughly one half the distance between the bore centers away from the aiming point on it’s own side of the aiming point, then the load is a regulating load! The aiming point of the sights should be “ON” for elevation, and half way between the CENTERS of the two groups of each barrel. This will make a proper slightly EGG SHAPED composite group of both barrels. If a scope is attached it should be zeroed half way between these two centers as well. And dead on for elevation the fifty yards of the standing rear sight. With the scope you simply hold dead on at the 50 yds at that distance, and hold over for 100 yds. With the irons you flip up the 100 yds sight and hold dead on for that range.

The key to finding a true regulating load for a double rifle is by firing the two four shot groups with EACH SHOT from COOL BARRELS! One shot from each barrel tells you nothing! It is the CENTERS or each barrel that will tell you if your load is proper or not!

The above is why I say the two shot regulation targets that come with a new double rifle is nothing more that something to sooth the new buyer’s nerves for have spent so much money, and is nothing more than window dressing! Once you get a proper 8 shot composite group with a aiming point half way between the centers of the each barrels 4 shot cool barrel groups, you then have a test target that tells you something, and should go with this rifle when sold! The factories should do the same now because the shooting public is largely out of the dark today, and are not as easily led by the nose. The factories are still living under the misconception that all people who nshoot double rifles will shoot factory ammo. My opinion is, that to get the absolute best from any double rifle one needs to hand-load for it!

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