I have been a lurker here for quite a while. The posts have been very informative and more importantly the replies are on topic and helpful which is not always the case on other forums.

Anyway, I figured I spend so much time here I might as well "join up". I have several questions but will start off with .......

can anyone recommend a sight with clear photos of proof marks. I have a Thomas Bland .577 3" double hammer, underlever rifle that I would like to "DECIPHER". I apparently don't have photo priveleges yet, but I do have several clear photos if anybody could help attach them to this thread. Thanks for any help.

That was easy..

https://store.bluebookinc.com/...rearm/Proofmarks.pdf

Next?

Thanks for the quick reply. I have used that chart in the past but it does not have several of the marks on my rifle, particularly a 577 above a "c" all inside a large "V".

There are several other common marks like the Crown over BP, Crown over R, and Crown over BV (what is a "view mark" anyway?).

I guess ultimately what matters is the Crown over NP, Cordite 90gr, 650bullet, 577, 3.00" and 577EX.

It has all been refinished somewhere in its lifetime but it appears to lock up tight,and the bores are bright.

A really good book exists which covers all the proof marks from all the differnet countries - a light green in colour, small paperback.

Can't remember what the name of it is or who write it but someone on here will remember it.

Well worth buying if into Old guns from any country.

It came to me !!!

This is the book

Standard Directory of Proof Marks (Paperback)
~ G. Wirnsberger (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Standard...berger/dp/089149006X

quote:

I apparently don't have photo priveleges yet,

Yeah, you do . . .

The photo needs to be stored on a web site that allows "hot linking." Photobucket.com is free and is worth what you pay for it. (They seem to change the interface weekly, and you need to "re-train" every time you use the site.)

Your photos are posted on the site with a URL loaction and then you can link them to this site.

Use the "img" codes. [ img ] http://www.URL.com/photo.jpg [ /img ]

NO SPACES!

You can right click on any image online and find it's URL location.

send your pictures to me, I'll post them.
rkmojo@aol.com

quote:

There are several other common marks like the Crown over BP, Crown over R, and Crown over BV (what is a "view mark" anyway?).

It appears that it may have been subject to a second, later, proof test. Usually (with this type of gun in this chambering) when a blackpowder cartridge firing gin has been tested to see if it will pass proof for use with smokeless or "nitro powder" cartridges.

Known as a "reproof". This is evidenced by the "Crown over R" mark which is a "reproof" mark. See below regrading the "crown over NP".

The "view mark" is what is sometimes known as a "gunmaker's proof".

Basically the gun without engraving, without blacking, without having been stocked and without being fitted with sights or "regulated" was sent to proof.

It was then given an initial proof test or "view". If it passed this test then the gunmaker knew that it was sound and so worth spending the time, effort and money of engraving, blacking, stocking, fitting with sights and regulating.

Think of it as being the same when a car manufacturer puts an engine on a test bed to try it before actually fitting it in a car to see if it is up to specification.

The "crown over NP" says that it passed proof for use with nitro (smokeless) powder. The "crown over R" would have been applied at the same time.

So your gun was originally chambered an sent to proof I think for the old blackpowder 577 sporting cartridge then later sent to proof for use with the identical sized, but more powerful smokeless powder loaded, 577 cartridge.

Eley-Kynoch used to colour code the boxes for such as the 577 that spanned the transition from blackpowder to smokeless. Red and green for blackpowder, red and blue for "smokeless loaded cartridges suitable for blackpowder guns, and yellow and red for "modern" cartridges loaded with smokeless powder and with corresponding higher performance and pressure.

Here are the barrel flat pictures provided to me.

I believe that this rifle is a reproofed rifle.
The crown over R is a reproof mark. The chamber length on the reproof means that the rifle was reproofed in 1925 or later.
The crown over scepters with B, C, P was discontinued after 1904. So I suspect the rifle was originally proofed prior to the "Rules of '04".

The crossed swords with the B to the right and the I at bottom. What is the letter to the left? A would indicate 1950, B 1951, C 1952 etc until Z 1974.

BV, BP and NP are the "view", "blackpowder" and "nitro" proof marks. So the rifle was proof tested at first make for blackpowder and for nitro.

The R is the reproof. The letter to the left of the B in the crossed swords will tell you the date of that.

Wow, thanks for all the help (and Rusty w/the pics).
Rusty, I think you are right about the original proofs being earlier than 1904. My research shows that T. Bland was only at their 430 Strand address from 1886-1900 and that is the address stamped on the barrels.

Enfieldspares, The letter on the left side of the crossed swords appears to be an "A" so does that mean the proofing or the reproofing for nitro occured in 1950?

Any thoughts on the mark that shows 577 over "c" in the large/wide "V"?

I have about 60 once fired cases, RCBS dies and a 650gr bullet mold made by Veral Smith at LBT. The rifle is in great condition so after being a safe queen for 20years (long story) I guess its time to start working up some loads.

Any thoughts or pointers would be appreciated.

P.S. Any theories on why they proofed this rifle with the 90gr Cordite 650gr bullet load instead of the "standard" 100gr/750bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
P.S. Any theories on why they proofed this rifle with the 90gr Cordite 650gr bullet load instead of the "standard" 100gr/750bullet?

Because it was originally a BP gun.

If you do your bit with bullet placement,
anything the 100gr/750bullet does, the 90gr/650gn can also do.

No animal is going to tell the difference they all die.

500N, that is the reason that I had always assumed. I just wanted to hear from somebody like yourself who actually knew the answer.

I have always been fairly certain that the 90/650 load would be more than adequate for anything on the planet.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
500N, that is the reason that I had always assumed. I just wanted to hear from somebody like yourself who actually knew the answer.

I have always been fairly certain that the 90/650 load would be more than adequate for anything on the planet.

Not sure about "knew" / know as with anything English, there is always the exception !!!

But it is likely to be ONE of the reasons. Someone else is sure to come up with others.

Some BP 577 guns were built like Brick outhouses
- not sure on this one as can't see the thickness of the metal around the breech - but a lot of the one's I've seen are almost over engineered and so suitable for re proof.

Someone obviously made a decision to go with 90/650.

I think that your V is not a V at all but a badly stamped diamond. Thus the 577 over C in the diamond indicates the chamber is not the same as than the "standard" (military) 577 Snider cartridge.

Certainly on shot guns you have this 12 in a diamond and 12 above a C in a diamond mark.

I think you are correct, in the middle photo you can see what looks like the top of a poorly struck diamond above the 577/c.

When these rifles were proofed, what type of loads (Max loads, 10% over) and testing did they do?
What velocity were they getting with a 90gr CORDITE charge and 650gr bullet?

I have a lot to learn!

Suggest you see my post above re a book to buy

This is the book

Standard Directory of Proof Marks (Paperback)
~ G. Wirnsberger (Author)



Also buy

Cartridges of the World.

It is a great reference book anyway but allows nearly all the Old English calibres to be looked at one after the other with old load data (which should always be cross referenced with other more detailed / informed books).

'Shooting the British Double Rifle' by Wright is "THE" book to get for loads and understanding these beasts.
Huntingtons has the best price on it that I've seen.

Some info can be seen in an online book - The Gun and Its Development by W. W. Greener. The book deals primarily with shotguns but has a section on proof marks.