I was comparing the prices on gun makers such as Perugini & Visini FAMARS and Hauptmann to existing British brands. Most of these are like 1/4 the price of their British counterpart. So what would be the opinion of those who have knowledge on both the British makers and the continental gun makers say .Is the extra premium noticed in the quality of the British guns and its just a case of diminishing returns the more we go up the quality ladder Or are we paying a huge premium for the brand of “British gun makers” and the associated nostalgia. I know both would shoot equally well but what about the finish, the attention to detail and the customization offered do these continental makers compare to the British gun makers or they are just a far second?
We are not comparing them to the old British made rifles just the current ones and their respective prices.

I also heard a few British makers buy barrels from Austrian and Italian gun makers is this true?

I think what your seeing with the British gunmaking it a trend to make only "best" or top end rifles. I can't tell you the last time I saw a new British box lock. The only thing that comes to mind off the top of my head would be Mackay- Brown round actions rifles and they are really top quality that compares to the others sidelock guns.

On the contenent many of the makers are building rifles to fit into a price level. Some of these guns are truly super good quality but when you talk about best quality sidelock guns from such as Hartmann & Weiss or Thys you'll find the price is creeping up there with the British guns.

Yes the British gunmakers have outsourced for a long time.

I happended to see pictures of a H and W double.From what i could make out from the picture the wood and metal fitting is better than the British rifles I saw.And yes they are more expensive as well .But then you could buy a new H and H even 50 years down the line ,I dont think you cna ge t anew H and W 50 eyars down the line made by Hartmann and Weiss .

How about the sidelocks by FAMARS for example how do they compare to the briitsh double.Would you say the british double(h and H ,purdey) is worth the 200+ percent premium.Assuming for some they dont mind paying the idfffenrce for that extra quality,is thre a noticable differnce.

*Do note I have only seen 1 new britsh double till date most of them were old ones or detailed pictures sent to me.So do look at my comments keeping this in mind

Compareing the quality on these high end double rifles becomes subjective at the very least.

It's really best IHO to kind of draw your own opinons and live with them.

$100,000.00 + double rifls are like beutiful women. Not everyone will agree but there are are some general perameters that combined will add up to the kind of gun people spend that much money on.

Of course name has value and the British names have the edge in name value to those of us who grew up in English speaking countrys.
An example of this would be the Swiss watch I'm wearing as I type this. I belive my Breitling is as good as any watch ever made. So why is it half the price of a Rolex?

quote:

Originally posted by ajsaxin:
I happended to see pictures of a H and W double.From what i could make out from the picture the wood and metal fitting is better than the British rifles I saw.And yes they are more expensive as well .But then you could buy a new H and H even 50 years down the line ,I dont think you cna ge t anew H and W 50 eyars down the line made by Hartmann and Weiss .

How about the sidelocks by FAMARS for example how do they compare to the briitsh double.Would you say the british double(h and H ,purdey) is worth the 200+ percent premium.Assuming for some they dont mind paying the idfffenrce for that extra quality,is thre a noticable differnce.

*Do note I have only seen 1 new britsh double till date most of them were old ones or detailed pictures sent to me.So do look at my comments keeping this in mind

Humm, last time I talked to FAMARS they got about $85,000 for there sidelock.Add 200% that would make it 255,000. I think you can buy a H&H for less than that

Most Continental makers make some fine guns. The H&W doubles that I have seen have been best quality and are second to none. FAMARS makes guns for other makers, some of them british. Very few British guns are made "all in house" one that I know of is Westley Richards.

The long of the short of it, buy what you like and can afford. H&H,Purdy, and WR will always be sought after, and bring a premium. But a good gun by Hambrusch,FAMARS,H&W,Fanjoz is a truly fine gun.

There are other great English makers doing business at below H&H prices. Trevor Proctor, Keith Thomas, and Tony White (I believe he is sill making rifles) in the boxlock persuasion or sidelock if you prefer. All for less than the leading Big Boys charge.


Dutch.

Don't forget Peter Nelson. His work is as good as it gets.

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:

quote:

Originally posted by ajsaxin:
I happended to see pictures of a H and W double.From what i could make out from the picture the wood and metal fitting is better than the British rifles I saw.And yes they are more expensive as well .But then you could buy a new H and H even 50 years down the line ,I dont think you cna ge t anew H and W 50 eyars down the line made by Hartmann and Weiss .

How about the sidelocks by FAMARS for example how do they compare to the briitsh double.Would you say the british double(h and H ,purdey) is worth the 200+ percent premium.Assuming for some they dont mind paying the idfffenrce for that extra quality,is thre a noticable differnce.

*Do note I have only seen 1 new britsh double till date most of them were old ones or detailed pictures sent to me.So do look at my comments keeping this in mind

Humm, last time I talked to FAMARS they got about $85,000 for there sidelock.Add 200% that would make it 255,000. I think you can buy a H&H for less than that

Most Continental makers make some fine guns. The H&W doubles that I have seen have been best quality and are second to none. FAMARS makes guns for other makers, some of them british. Very few British guns are made "all in house" one that I know of is Westley Richards.

The long of the short of it, buy what you like and can afford. H&H,Purdy, and WR will always be sought after, and bring a premium. But a good gun by Hambrusch,FAMARS,H&W,Fanjoz is a truly fine gun.

Ed, any idea what Famars gets for a boxlock?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Ed, any idea what Famars gets for a boxlock?

dave

i think luxuswalnut have them for around 19-20.000,-$

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Ed, any idea what Famars gets for a boxlock?

dave

i think luxuswalnut have them for around 19-20.000,-$

best

peter

Yep,

I talked to Marco last week,

Adam has his "Bwana" gun it has mono-bock barrels and extractors for 20K

With Chopperlump barrels ejectors and a dolls head 3rd bite he was around 38K.

Ed

Frankonia has one - discounted from 38K € to 30K€.

http://www.frankonia.de/shop/D.../productdetail.html#

Yes the actual prices of top end continental doubles do put British ones into different (more attractive) perspective. Look at the new boxlock by Fanzoj (it will be presented at Reno):



http://www.fanzoj.com/en/gunro...ouble_tough_gun.html

Price?

35K€+ (here in EU) thats roughly 50K$...I can imagine a price of their sidelock.

I ve always liked fine watches. When it comes to watches what distinguishes them is not just the performance or features alone ,it’s the workmanship, small details in the finishing of movement differentiates a great watchmaker from a regular popular brand. So when it comes to guns is there something that you would need to look out for, which would differentiate between the best and the good ones. Any specific detail that the top British brands would have because of the amount of effort put into it compared to a good continental makers .

quote:

Originally posted by ajsaxin:
I ve always liked fine watches. When it comes to watches what distinguishes them is not just the performance or features alone ,it’s the workmanship, small details in the finishing of movement differentiates a great watchmaker from a regular popular brand. So when it comes to guns is there something that you would need to look out for, which would differentiate between the best and the good ones. Any specific detail that the top British brands would have because of the amount of effort put into it compared to a good continental makers .

I like watches too, same applies! An Anonimo is a hell of a watch but a Panerai brings more money, just like a Westley Richards, will always bring more than a Fanzoj. If you want to be seen buy an H&H (Rolex), if you dont care buy a H&W (franck Muller)!

Ed

The difference is in the smaller details. The shape of the top strap, the way the engraving tool is used, the width of the slots in the screw heads and the if the gun is a boxlock the shape of the rear of the action where it meets the wood.

A typical difference well shown in the boxlock picture is that continental guns often have a locking screw to "hold" another screw. Just like on a military Mauser floorplate. Or the shape of the tang safety catch...is it a "ramp" or a "domed stud".

Even the type of toplever system used which determines its position on the action. Whether the "Scott" type or another. Is it near the standing breech or set back away from it? Look at the gun in Elmer Keith's hands at the picture at the top of this Forum. Much further forward between the fences.

How the fences are defined and the shape of them. The boxlock pictured does not have what I would call a classic "English" shape to the fence.

So IMHO "how they compare" is not about quality of build in itself but about that "other thing" the details.

Even to how the gun is blacked and which parts are and which parts are not. The top lever pin (screw) is always blacked on "English" guns. On continental guns it is often left bright. Again the boxlock. On an "English" gun the pin (screw) in the side of the boxlock action would be blacked. Here it is bright.

Even the forend ironwork is often different between the one or the other. Some of the continentals just can't quite seem to do an Anson rod without it looking "heavy" at the tip compared to an English made Anson rod.

Just as at a glance you can tell a Smith & Wesson revolver from a Colt revolver. I prefer Smiths. Some prefer Colts. It's a free world and we have different tastes in these things.

The bottom line is that on an "English" gun "form follows function" (like a classic Colt 1911 pistol) in that there is not one piece of metal or wood more than is absolutely necessary to get the job of delivering a well aimed bullet reliably and safely. A "minimalist" approach to gun making if you wish!

The big diffeence between the Britt doubles, and the contintal doubles is that the Britts made no junk. The cheaper Britt "WORKING RIFLES" may have been cheaper that the "look at me" doubles from the same maker, but were just as good in the field. This can't always be said of the Contintal doubles. They may be junk and cheap in price, or very good and cheap in price, and one must know what he is buying there.

Many of the features that poeple make so much noise about that make the rifle somehow worth a fortune, or another made a different way are nothing more, in most cases, that "SNOBB FACTOR".

A well made boxlock is just as good in practical terms as a well made side lock. A well made, and fitted Mono-BLOCK, properly made shoelump, or dovetail lump barrel set is not inferior to a chopper lump barrel set.

The price difference is two fold, #1 buyers have long since been told that the chopper lump is somehow worth consideranly more money. BUNK! If both are equally well fitted one is absolutely as good as the other. #2 is that the customer has more room for engraving on a side lock, but can have the same space for that with a side plated boxlock, for thousands less.

The best double rifle from Europe are just as good at the best from the UK, if what you want is a good double rifle. However, because everyone has bought into the UK doubles having magic qualities somehow which with the top of the line from both places it can't be diminstrated in practical terms, makes the Britt rifles sell for sometimes ten fold over the same level in Europe. In most cases what the buyer is really getting for the extra money is prestige, and look what I can afford smoke and mirrors.

There is a difference in equally well made double rifles depending on where they are made that in many cases is certainly not justified, unless the purchase is for an investment. If that is your goal, the the only place to go is English, but if you want a good quality rifle that you can KEEP, and hand down to your great grand children to hunt with, the upper level Europian is the prudent way to buy!

........Hold your fire till I get dug in, because I understand the position I have put myself in from the so-called "Purests"
PS: I also mount scopes on a double rifle if I need one, and I do not consider that an unforgivable sin, no matter who made the rifle!

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Shifting a point from desired to needed - if we restrain our selves to the working doubles- they (continental) do meet all there is to be desired on working double – I am still waiting for one from the isle to show up. Please point me up – in the meantime – you name it : Merkels, Krieghoffs, Chapuis…Heym – all of them continental – the peak of the working doubles (IMO) is Heym’s Ph model - they will provide you with a sterling performance – now lets see British version of the…at the cost…

All the rest shown up here/atm is in some other world of their own – very little to do with hunting but much of a do with craftsmanshift – matter of fancy – recovering from an eye opener (cost) – for the value/cost – get me a British one – anytime - no doubt

quote:

The price difference is two fold, #1 buyers have long since been told that the chopper lump is somehow worth consideranly more money. BUNK! If both are equally well fitted one is absolutely as good as the other.

I'd disagree on just one point of that. You can't, or it isn't advised, to use a Holland & Holland spring tube type self-opening system with dovetail lump barrels. The theory is that it will over time push the "shift" the dovetail lump!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

The price difference is two fold, #1 buyers have long since been told that the chopper lump is somehow worth consideranly more money. BUNK! If both are equally well fitted one is absolutely as good as the other.

I'd disagree on just one point of that. You can't, or it isn't advised, to use a Holland & Holland spring tube type self-opening system with dovetail lump barrels. The theory is that it will over time push the "shift" the dovetail lump!

That could certainly be the case, however, very few, if any, double rifles utilize the assisted opening actions. That is usually restricted to bird guns. You are correct that the dovetail is the weakest of the lot, but I have owned doubles that were well used and over 100 yrs old that were still working well, with no sign of lump shift.

quote:

I have owned doubles that were well used and over 100 yrs old that were still working well, with no sign of lump shift.

Totally in agreement with this and in fact I would add that I've never seen a "shifted lump" on any dovetail lump gun, properly made, that has had normal use, ever.

My own Henry Clarke side by side has been in the family since my father had it as a birthday present in 1919 when he was twelve years old.

It might have been sleeved, re-stocked, had broken springs replaced in its Westley Box, a new top lever spring, been re-blacked and etc., etc including a re-joint...but the dovetail lump is where it was ninety years ago!

In fact I doubt if anyone ever has either seen a "shifted lump" where a large amount of heat from a gas torch has not been been involved as on well made guns these things were brazed in place and not soldered like the ribs.

quote:

PS: I also mount scopes on a double rifle if I need one, and I do not consider that an unforgivable sin, no matter who made the rifle!

Heresy!!!!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

PS: I also mount scopes on a double rifle if I need one, and I do not consider that an unforgivable sin, no matter who made the rifle!

Heresy!!!!!!!

Brett

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Brit guns are awesome...Period. I wanted one when I was in a market for a vintage rifle a couple of years ago.

However, I came across a vintage (1928) A. Francotte DR in .470 NE. The rifle is in my signature line below. It has every bit the look, feel and styling of a British rifle from the same period. For the price, I couldn't pass it up. It is one damn fine rifle.