Good Afternoon Folks:

I stumbled across a beautiful Churchill double rifle in 450 bpe with barrels sleeved in the 1920's to a diameter of .458" The gunsmith told me the gun is capable of shooting nitro loads but it has not been proofed for said nitro loads.

The wood is gorgeous, metal work is beautiful.

Asking price is $6,000. Canadian, with dies and brass.

What say you? Is this a deal? Is there anything I should be aware of or cautious about?

Will post pics nextg time I get a look at it.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

Worth maybe 40% of that.

What do "re-proof" marks after sleeving tell you? What they tell you is what you can shoot in it.

That the rifle is “capable” of chambering and shooting full Nitro loads should not be construed as “should be” fired with those loads.
All that said gunsmith can guess is that the barrels are more modern steel and will not burst.
The fact is that after sleeving, the action frame and locking lugs are still the old parts that were designed and built for black powder or proper “Nitro for Black” loads.
As well, what if the original chambering were for a smaller cartridge? Without a look at the original proof marks on the barrel flats (if they are still there) you will not know.


$6000CAD is about $4500USD these days.....maybe a decent deal as a shooter if the rifle is truly in nice condition.

Reiterate: this is NOT a Nitro proved rifle.....it is and always will be a Black Powder Express.

What was its original chambering? I am not sure where if they still exist the Churchill records are. A picture of the barrel flats and their proof marks would be useful?

the gun was chambered for 450 bpe. The gunsmith says it was sleeved, not sure that is the right term, for 458 to bring the bore in line with the new diameter of 450; that being .458"

As I was told, the original diameter of 450 bpe was smaller than .458".

As for sleeving, the barrels have a very bright new looking liner. this liner or sleeve was supposed to have been put in in the 1920's.

Regards,

Carpediem

P.S. Transvaal: Why do you think it is only worth 40% of the asking price?

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Good Afternoon Folks:

I stumbled across a beautiful Churchill double rifle in 450 bpe with barrels sleeved in the 1920's to a diameter of .458" The gunsmith told me the gun is capable of shooting nitro loads but it has not been proofed for said nitro loads.

The wood is gorgeous, metal work is beautiful.

Asking price is $6,000. Canadian, with dies and brass.

What say you? Is this a deal? Is there anything I should be aware of or cautious about?

Will post pics nextg time I get a look at it.

Kind regards,

Carpediem

Run! Simply because this rifle has the proper bore dia for the smokeless load in no way indicates this rifle is strong enough for a nitro load. As has been said, the frame and other parts are likely too soft for nitro loads. On the other hand even the black powder loads my not now regulate but if it will, it will simply be a new clean bore, and the .458 bullets with the black powder load may still regulate.

The price is very high even for the original BP double rifle that has not been tinkered with. If it will regulate properly with the BP load and the .458 bullets I wouldn't pay more than 3K U.S. for it.

I think this is a deal that has some potential problems that I would shy away from.


………………………………………………………...

If the rifle has barrel “liners” versus “sleeving” then absolutely it should not be shot with modern Nitro Express loads.

Thank you gentlemen for your time.


I am at an age now where I have enough common sense to listen to my gut. And my gut says walk away.

When my smith said it was lined or sleeved and not nitro proofed, my radar went up.

You gentlemen have confirmed my suspicions and a few other things to consider.

$6000.00 saved for another venture. thank you again.

Regards,

Carpediem

If it has had the wok done as described it would be illegal to sell it here in UK if not then re-proved. So my suspicion is that if the work was done in the UK, yet it wasn't proved, that was because the person that did it feared it would fail.