I have been looking at Sabatti Doubles. They are supplied with a final regulated target. Most of the final regulations are to the right and some maybe low? As a rule is this where the rifle will shoot with hand loads tailored to the rifle or is the point of impact going to be different?

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
I have been looking at Sabatti Doubles. They are supplied with a final regulated target. Most of the final regulations are to the right and some maybe low? As a rule is this where the rifle will shoot with hand loads tailored to the rifle or is the point of impact going to be different?

The targets show what the gun shoots like with the ammo specified on the target. it is written on it what ammo was used.

Hand loads tailored to the rifle SHOULD be able to replicate if not better these. After all, you have primers, powders, bullets, seating depth etc etc to play with.

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Regarding the regulation targets: I am very skeptical when only two shots, one from each barrel are shown, if you are trying to judge how the rifle will shoot from that reference. Additionally, such a low sample may mean little or nothing (I have seen some that had vertical impact on regulation target prove out to shoot just fine, with a larger more indicative sample. You mentioned that some show impact to be left/right, or low. If that shows to be the case, when you give rifle sight in test, all those conditions can be adjusted by your slight movement adjustment of the rear sight. Don't confuse regulation with sighting in; they are two entirely different things. For regulation, you want to see no cross firing, but do want to preferably see, for side by side, both left and right impact, in horizontal; not vertical pattern (in vertical pattern for over under), about 2 inches apart at 50 yards. You want to know if rifle is patterning, both barrels generally together, left barrel to left of target; right barrel to right of target, within 3 inches of each other is the standard for big bore rifles; not cross firing at any range, A well regulated double rifle will never cross fire, but will shoot parallel to infinity (some people are very confused about this fact, and some gun writers have even written otherwise). As already mentioned, the regulation target was shot with specific loads mentioned on target itself.

Thanks that explained it. How far apart at 50 M should the bullets be? Exactly the same as the barrels?

The above post by doubleriflejack is absolutely true, and I would only add that the double rifle is a HUNTING rifle, and therefore regulated in a certain way that has not been explained to my knowledge here!

The double rifle being a hunting rifle is designed and regulated to be fired for the first four shots, two from each barrel from a cool barrel set, the with the second shot within 8 seconds of the first shot to regulate properly. Shots three and four are not as critical as the first two, for they are usually shots at a running animal, either away, or coming to you.

The individual groups from each barrel will as will, any rifle, open up as the range gets longer, and the best indication of regulation is finding the center of each barrel’s individual group, in relation to the aiming point, and to the center of the group from the other barrel. Both centers, in relation to the aiming point of the sights at the range engraved on the standing rear sight.

To find this properly, one must fire each barrel on a separate target with the aiming point being a crosshair drawn vertically and horizontally through the exact center of the paper, with the apex being the aiming point. The shots need to be fired right barrel first, then the left barrel within 8 seconds of the first shot from a cool barrel set. Let the barrels cool to room temperature then fire shots three and four the same way and time limit. Let the barrels cool again, and fire five and six the same way.

Now you take both targets and overlay one over the other, and with a pen draw circles through the holes in one target onto the target below. The bottom target will have actual holes, showing the hits on that target, and penned circles for the shots on the other target. NOW! Find the center of each barrel’s individual group, and where they are in relation to the aiming point on the target.

This will give you a real indication of how well the loads you are using shoot to the regulation built into your rifle. This in conjunction with a chronograph reading will tel you far more than trying to make two shot shoot the same place as those two on the test target. Those shots were fired after the rifle was finished just to prove the rifle was still within limits before shipping. The regulator will shoot more than two shots to get the rifle regulated, and fore several from cool barrel sets to get his final regulation down! To find your best load you need to do the same.

As doubleriflejack says these two shots only tell you the rifle is as close as any two shots from the individual barrel groups are likely to be. The process above is to find the best load for your rifles. IMO, the double rifle is the best reason for hand-loading your own ammo, and for three reasons, #1 you get far better ammo that will get the best your rifle is capable of, and #2 because the cost of ammo for most big bore double rifles is so expensive that one can’t shoot as much as he wants. #3 very few double rifles will get their best accuracy from factory ammo.


…………………………….Marry Christmas, and a happy hunting new year to all here!

And number 4; off-hand, in the field, at dangerous game, you won't know the difference anyway if your DR is shooting twice as big as the targets show. (I know most of you can tell, but I can't.)

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
And number 4; off-hand, in the field, at dangerous game, you won't know the difference anyway if your DR is shooting twice as big as the targets show. (I know most of you can tell, but I can't.)

You are absolutely correct! That shot is either one at a buffalo getting into the grass, or point blank IN YOUR FACE shot! The "getting away" shot is fairly easy, but the "point blank" one takes practice to get it off at all.

The exercise I describe above is simply to find what your rifle is capable of, not what you can do with it in a SHTF situation! If the rifle will do the job, the rest is up to the shooter.

I can get off four shots on target at 25 yards in four seconds or less from a 9.3X74R double rifle, but a 470NE will take a little longer, about 6 seconds, but still on target though.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD3
I can get off four shots on target at 25 yards in four seconds or less from a 9.3X74R double rifle, but a 470NE will take a little longer, about 6 seconds, but still on target though.

Wow! Very impressive Mac! I'd love to see such poetry in motion.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD3
I can get off four shots on target at 25 yards in four seconds or less from a 9.3X74R double rifle, but a 470NE will take a little longer, about 6 seconds, but still on target though.

Wow! Very impressive Mac! I'd love to see such poetry in motion.

I did it in front of all the DRSS guys at the HOOT&SHOOT down in houston last year with a 9.3X74R Merkel that had an auto safety, and I forgot the safety, and tried to fire shot 3 with the safety on, and still did the four shots in 4 seconds flat, keeping all four shots in the black at 25 yds scoreing 36 points out of a possible 40 points if all shots had hit the 1 inch ten ring.

This is an off hand shoot, that starts with the rifle loaded, time starts when you fire the first shot, and stops when you fire the last of four shots, on an 8 inch target at 25 yds. If I had followed my own advice and disengaged the auto feature of that safety, I could have shaved a full second off that time and done the four shots in 3 seconds. With a lion closeing on me that extra second could have cost me a good mauling.
It just takes practice!

Mac the 470 shold not slow you down that much. I broke both dangerous game water jugs in 1.5 seconds with my scoped chapruis set on 1X.
I could have been a little faster but I had to wait for the second jug to hit the ground, it was blown off by the first shot. 500 gr soft points make jugs explode at 2100 fps.
JD

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Mac the 470 shold not slow you down that much. I broke both dangerous game water jugs in 1.5 seconds with my scoped chapruis set on 1X.
I could have been a little faster but I had to wait for the second jug to hit the ground, it was blown off by the first shot. 500 gr soft points make jugs explode at 2100 fps.
JD

JD we were shooting four shots with a re-load of shots three and four in the middle on an 8 inch target at 25 yds. Any shots that didn't hit the black were counted as a miss! As you know my 9.3X74R Merkel has ejectors, and my 470NE Merkel is an extractor rifle. I haven't tried the 470NE on that particular shoot, but I'm sure it will be slower in my case anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Mac the 470 shold not slow you down that much. I broke both dangerous game water jugs in 1.5 seconds with my scoped chapruis set on 1X.
I could have been a little faster but I had to wait for the second jug to hit the ground, it was blown off by the first shot. 500 gr soft points make jugs explode at 2100 fps.
JD

JD we were shooting four shots with a re-load of shots three and four in the middle on an 8 inch target at 25 yds. Any shots that didn't hit the black were counted as a miss! As you know my 9.3X74R Merkel has ejectors, and my 470NE Merkel is an extractor rifle. I haven't tried the 470NE on that particular shoot, but I'm sure it will be slower in my case anyway!

Extractors would slow you down on reloads. For two fast shoots, with a proper rifle (weight and fit) the recoil of the 470 should not slow you down that much. The 9.3 is a much lighter rifle, the lift at the front sight and loss of sight picture is about the same, less than the 470 but not enough to make that big of a differance. Good shooting form and follow through should get you back on target about the same. The 470 hits a little harder so it takes more concentration to pick up the sights quickly. Kind of like boxing, you have to learn to function even when you just got hit. It's more mental than physical. I found that a peep sight is faster than a express sight, and a low power scope is even faster about the same as a red dot. The rifle has to fit, if the stock is wrong a scope or peep is no advantage.


I wish I was as smooth as you are with my reloads. I have seen you shoot and reload , there is no loss motion or fumbling around.
A very polished acr.
JD
JD