The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Detraction in value for double rifles..Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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There are a lot of old british doubles around and they variate a lot when it comes to condition. Some are all original, many have been through the renovation mill, with various results.. As Cal says, if the barrels are good all else can be fixed...but to a price..it takes a very qualified gunsmith to do this kind of work.. Lets say a rifle is changed from .400/360 NE to 9,3x74R...quite common when ammo supply ended..it is a plus when it comes to use but surely will detract from a collectors point of view..? I see that many rifles that have been renovated are re-color case hardened. In my book a re-proof should be mandatory after that, but is this usually done..?? After all, we are talking about 100 + year old metallurgy here.. Opinons..? | ||
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The metal was good at the time they were made but impurities can begin to set its mark by creating tiny cracks in the alloy. When started the Bessemer method to make masproduction steel they blew air into the molten to remove air(you read it), but it didn`t remove impurities. Later they fluexed the steel with additives like we flux lead when we cast bullets to remove impurities. At the time the english Steel Industry started with a new process called(fluid process) they were also began to add nickel and chrome to increase the alloy properties but still impurities couldn`t be removed intirely + there are also impurities in nickel and chrome too. Older steel suffer from fatique. Here socalled crack Growth occur. Where does the crack Growth occur first?. You guessed it. Where the impurities are. So to answer your question if you ask me one can be lucky to find a nice pre-war doublerifle (pre 1914) with good barrels, but I would still have the barrels Xrayed. Otherwise I would deduct the price for a new set of barrels. One might be lucky one might not be so lucky. This here goes in particular for early nitro express guns. Blackpowder express guns that still keep shooting lead bullets at low velocity doesn`t stress the barrels to a same level as a jacket nitro round does. And its very rare one ever hear a blackpowder express has blown barrels shooting leadbullets at original velocity. The older blackpowder rifles may have fatique, but they not affected so long one keeps to its original ammunition. In regards to a gun is refinished, restocked, a chamber alteration etc, most be assesed whether you want to buy the gun as a collector or a shooter versus the price. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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The unfortunate reality is that many of the cartridges, once obsolete, which lack of compelled these re-bores and re-chambers are now once more again available. So what but twenty years ago was a "sensible" alteration to an otherwise obsolete double rifle is in 2019 an unfortunate (and now unnecessary) re-working harmful to the item's value. On re-colouring certainly in the UK it is not thought something that the requires the gun be subject to re-proof. I suppose that there is the age old trying to square the circle. Does a practical modification to extend an items useable life detract from its worth as being an original untouched example of its maker's work? Only the end user can decide. I have a Boss 12 Bore sidelock. Made in 1922. It was re-barreled in the 1960s by another. But yet (this was often done - and often with that maker's tacit blind eye) has the Boss name on the rib. With the correct address (Cork Street) for where Boss were located at that time in the 1960s. Now I know they are not Boss barrels, the person I sold it to was open that they were not Boss barrels. And Boss themselves also know this. But outwardly it looks like an all original gun and shoots as well. More important it is better as a practical gun than with its original set from when it was made Boss barrels which were presumably at the end of their practical and usable working life or with those barrels sleeved. And...the bottom line....these barrels were likely made by the same man who would in any case have made them for Boss if it had been at that time been directly re-barrelled if it had been sent to Boss for the work to be carried out! | |||
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Most qualified gunsmiths in the USA will not re-color case harden an action unless it was originally case hardened. I have had a couple of my shotguns re-cae hardened during restoration because it almost never causes a serious functional problem. The failure of the SxS gun action almost always occur where the standing breech meets the action flat - right in the corner. This is why that is never a true 90% angle - it is pretty strong and accomodates the geometry of the pivoting barrels. By 1915 the British, Germans, Swedes, French and other steel makers had figured out the 'fluid, compressed' steel making process. And actions such as the 1896 and 1898 and later Mauser actions are renowned for the quality of metallurgy and strength of the design. Same for double guns. I doubt that any seller of a classic double rifle is going to discount his price by the 15,000 pounds it would cost to have a new set of chopper lump barrels built, fitted, and regulated. Worth a try, though, I suppose. | |||
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Turnbull has re case/colored anything I have sent them whether originally case hardened or not. Even modern chrome moly steel; their methods work whereas other's, and the old methods, will make them brittle. He has developed some proprietary methods, it seems. As for "proofing", there is no guidance nor requirements for such a thing in the US. European countries require it, here, no. | |||
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Doug Turnbull does good work, and has done work for me. But I do not believe that his process is actual CASE HARDENING, rather it applies case hardening-like colors. I do not know his process exactly, but I do not believe it is true case hardening. | |||
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I have used Turnbull and his colors are very good. He can case harden for colors; and he can produce the colors without surface or through hardening on such alloys as 4140. I know this as I asked him to do this on a action of 4140 alloy steel for me. I suspect that on the 4140 alloy steel project for me, he did not bring the temperature up to the transformation stage and then quenched so that the through hardening did not occur as one would expect on 4140 alloy steel. Of course there was not surface hardening either. Personally, I would not buy a double rifle that has been re-case hardened, even though (surprisingly to me) UK does not require re-proof for that. | |||
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Champions had a beautiful Evans BLNE 9.3x74r rechambered from .360 NE. It was rechambered by Rigby in 1984. It was priced at $14,000 and I thought it was very fair. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Detraction in value for double rifles..
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