Just wondering if these two Italian makers are know outside of Italy and what their reputaiton is like?

A&S, also known as Farmars, makes a full range of SxS and O/U shotguns and double rifles.

I understand that they made the Berretta 455 serries SxS double rifles.

I have an A&S sidelock 375H&H double rifle and it is well made. Attention to detail is excellent. I've only owned the rifle since ~ September and haven't shot it much yet, as it is being converted to suit me, and I'm a lefty.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
A&S, also known as Farmars, makes a full range of SxS and O/U shotguns and double rifles.

I understand that they made the Berretta 455 serries SxS double rifles.

I have an A&S sidelock 375H&H double rifle and it is well made. Attention to detail is excellent. I've only owned the rifle since ~ September and haven't shot it much yet, as it is being converted to suit me, and I'm a lefty.

JPK

Just curious who is doing the work?
Bill

Some work is being done by a local fellow, John Meyers of Custom Ginsmithing, Inc., and some will be done by Griffin and Howe.

John will remove the cheekpiece and adjust length and drill out the butt some. While I am at his shop will remove wood from the right side to build in cast on (the stock can't be bent since the top strap is over the comb.) Remove wood, then I mount, remove some more, mount again... until very close and then mount and shoot to see if quick shooting reveals any fit errors since by merely mounting a rifle repeatedly you can mistakenly begin to adjust to it. Of course, in the heat of the moment, there is no adjusting, it must fit.

John will also heavy up the triggers which are too light at 1 1/2lbs each. While at it he will twist the triggers to the left so that my finger makes full contact as opposed to contacting only the left side of the blades which are twisted for a righty.

He will add Joe Smithson bases and mount a S&B 1.1x4 illuminated reticle scope in Joe Smithson rings, along with a spare Leupold 1.5x5. That is if Joe Smithson will get around to making the bases and then sell us the bases. If not then the rifle will go to Joe Smithson for the bases.

The flip over sight protector/night sight needs a bit of extra spring also since it "deploys" on recoil.

Griffin & Howe will refinish the stock, cover the Silvers pad in pig skin and give the rifle a once over as a double check before it goes to Africa with me.

I have learned to prefer right handed actions and find pushing the top lever more natural than drawing it. Trigger placement isn't an issue, except for the need to twist triggers to make full contact.

JPK

I am a recent owner of a very nice Perugini & Vincini double in 9.3x74R. It's a case colored box lock ejector model topped now with a new (older model) Swarovski 1" 1.5-4.5 scope in claw mounts.

Only problem is it's also a right handed gun. Fortunatly I can have some LH cast bent into it and easily remove the right (wrong) handed cheek piece so it'll be a lefty soon.

I picked up the rifle with an older Kahles straight 2.5x 1" scope on it and changed it right away with the Swarovski.

It's regulation load is a RWS 248 grain loading of which I have none so I tried some loads the prior owner has been using. I'll have time later to develop some of my own.

At the range I found the cheapo S&B 285 gr soft point shot VERY well in this rifle. Bullets about 1.25" apart at 100 yards. Since time is short, it'll be the load I use for now. I'll try other loads later, but this is good enough for this weeks hunting trip.

It'll be coming with me to Texas this week for some hog hunting. Can't wait to see it in action.

ChopperGuy,

Congrats on the rifle.

Will you need to twist the triggers or are the straight to begin with?

JPK

JPK:

They are straight as they are.

I'm used to shooting double triggers on my shotguns so double triggers set up for right handed shooters are no problem for me.

I actually think I'd have problems shooting triggers set up for a lefty.

quote:

Originally posted by ChopperGuy:
JPK:

They are straight as they are.

I'm used to shooting double triggers on my shotguns so double triggers set up for right handed shooters are no problem for me.

I actually think I'd have problems shooting triggers set up for a lefty.

I have the triggers twisted, but not changed so the front fires the left barrel. On many of my previuosly right handed shotguns and rifles the triggers were twisted so that, shooting lefty, my finger only engaged the left edge of the blade. I find this annoying so have the triggers twisted.

I think I'd have some trouble adapting to triggers set up for a lefty to fire the left barrel first too.

JPK

Express,
To answer your question......
There are dealers here in the U.S.
In fact we are currently looking at carrying A&S in our new shop. We talked to them about building a line of custom guns for us (LUXUS). We supply a great amount of wood to the Italian gun makers and have a good relationship with them. They are all good people and talented gunmakers.

The two you asked about are both high quality makers.
A&S,aka Famars, will and does make big bore doubles and they are on par with anything coming out of Italy, and in my opinion they are on par with anything coming from England.
P&V is a smaller maker but one who builds very artistic and beautiful guns. I am imagine they will build big bores though i have yet to see anything over the 9.3x74.

They are both similar companies and located next to one another.

Just returned from the IWA show and in my opinion the Italians are building some of the finest guns in the world. They are artistic and beautiful, a harmonious merger of contemporary designs and old world style.

Hope this answered your question.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I understand that they made the Berretta 455 serries SxS double rifle

JPK

If so, that would be very recent and highly doubtful. My own 455 EELL was done in their custom shop, I was allowed to visit the work in progress while I was there on a case a few years ago and my rifle was being completed. They still build a few of these SXS sidelocks and I believe still through the custom shop rather than farm out the work. Of course, some of the employees may be independent contractors who also work elsewhere, but the last time I spoke to one of my Italian friends who collects their high end guns, he said that their top line products remain under the careful eye of the company.

I also agree that the rifles coming out of Italy today are superb, and IMHO, better than some of the products coming out under the name of 'respected' old line British makers but in fact either built 'across the pond' or assembled in GB out of bbls, actions, etc from elsewhere.

I would not hesitate to buy and Italian DR at any price level. The ones I own are outstanding. Besides my Beretta I have two P&V boxlocks which are extremely nice and which I picked up lightly used for a very nice price. Most people here do not know what they are, or think they are Spanish, or just won't buy anything from a 'Latin' maker. Their loss, my gain, one in 9.3X74R and the other in 7.65R.

Now, if you REALLY want to see a piece of art work, I have a Ferlib round body hammer double in 9.3 with the most elegant and artistic engraving that came cased with a second set of 20ga bbls. Again, a comparative steal. Why? One of those 'odd' names.

Dave

Dave,
That ferlib gun was made by Ivano Tagnfoglio and very probably was engraved by Giancarlo the gentleman who started Creative Art. They are both good friends and work together often.
They both do beautiful work.

You can see more of their work at the Ferlib sight or at Tagnfoglio and Rizzini.

Yes, they do indeed do beautiful work. I was quite sad when the Dakota round action DR and shotgun project, which they were to build, failed. The one DR that was built, in 375 Flanged, was nicely done, until some idiot cut down the butt to fit a smaller customer, who then backed out of the deal and left it unbalanced and awkward to shoot. I put a box of cartridges through it, and by the time I got to it, it had been 'ridden hard and put away wet', needed some TLC and I passed.

Too bad, but lovely, lovely work. The 9.3X74R hammer gun I have is a work of art and isn't going to leave my hands while I am still able to shoot it. Dave

quote:

Originally posted by dnovo:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I understand that they made the Berretta 455 serries SxS double rifle

JPK

If so, that would be very recent and highly doubtful. My own 455 EELL was done in their custom shop, I was allowed to visit the work in progress while I was there on a case a few years ago and my rifle was being completed. They still build a few of these SXS sidelocks and I believe still through the custom shop rather than farm out the work.

Dave

I have a Beretta 455 also and really like it. It was made in 1997 and came to the US in 1999.
After hearing the core of the Beretta double rifles were actually made by A&S, I was curious and wanted to confirm it. Before getting a response, however, I had little doubt though since when you look at the A&S double rifle and mine, it's pretty obvious they came from the same gunmaker.
Still wanting confirmation, I decided to contact A&S to find out. On February 7, 2005 I sent A&S the following email along with my gun's serial numbers:

quote:

I've heard from two good sources that Abbiatico di Salvinelli was the
gunmaker for Beretta when they offered their models 455 and 455 EELL. I own a 455 and like it very much after purchasing it last spring. I contacted Beretta to get some history of my gun and was told it was made in 1997 and originally shipped for sale to New York in 1999. Can you confirm whether or not A&S made the gun or did Beretta?

Six hours later I received the following response:

quote:

We actually did this gun but to have more information about it you should contact Beretta, we can't say anything about it.
Sorry.

Kindest regards,

Elisabetta Salvinelli

It sounds to me like the fact that A&S is the base gunmaker for Beretta double rifles is somewhat of a secret that A&S was reluctant to divulge. Beretta no doubt finished these guns, but the evidence suggesting the primary work was done by someone else is pretty convincing.

Interesting. I do know that there are only a handful of craftsmen who do the basic DR work in any country, including Italy. That is also the case even in Merrie Ole England, where the engraving was 'let out' to independent artists just like those who did the work on my 455 and then signed his efforts. I wouldn't be surprised if A&S (or its principal artisans) worked on your 455 or mine and only the final assembly and testing/regulation took place in the Beretta custom shop. (My gun was completed and regulated in 1998.) Since the A&S shotguns I have handled and used are marvelously done, and as the engraving on our guns is also signed by individual artisans as well, the bottom line is that we have a treasure on our respective hands. Dave