I am having another 450/400 built. There are some issues I need to have settled before finalizing the order. This rifle will have all of the amenities one wants to have on a fine double. The only fly is barrel construction. I wanted chopper lump barrels. That kicks the cost up on that rifle by 8k and just may take it out of my range. Their standard construction is demi-block. I know all of my Beretta double shotguns are similarly constructed and have no issues. What to do?????

Who is making the rifle for you?

Its an Italian maker, Famars.

Put that 8k towards going hunting.

Keith

I own an A&S Farmars. Nice rifle. Mine is a sidelock and has chopper lump barrels.

I would not hesitate to order the demi-bloc barrels so long as the seam is tig welded and so invisible. I have some English shotgun barrels that have been sleeved, same thing as demi-bloc, and then tig welded, and the job is all but invisible.

If Farmars' version of demi-blocing left a visible seam I would opt for the chopper lump barrels.

JPK

Ah, Famars! Leonard, you are going to enjoy that rifle. The ones I have handled have been beautiful.
I think the Demi block will be fine. Chopper lump is prefered and would help with the resale, however I know you'll want to keep that one. Hope yours will have the extended tang strap that most Famars have?

The original order was for the following options;
Chopper lump barrels of 25", English scroll engraving, bone charcoal case hardening on action, rolled trigger guard with extended top strap and extended wrist strap, hidden third fastener, articulated front trigger, ejectors, fine wood finished with the red English tint I love, the quarter rib fitted for Talley rings and all to come in at 8lbs or a little less! They say all is ok but the chopper lump barrels will add 8k to the price and six months longer on time. I think they make a wonderful rifle also. Just not sure the boot for the chopper lumps is ultimately worth it. I see all manner of English double rifles sold and most either have shoe lumps or dovetail lumps which should not be as strong as the demiblock design but I am no expert and really could use the advise. I know most doubles come with demiblock construction now.

Someone correct me but I thought that Demi-block barrels were chopperlump barrels usually refered to in Italy, Austria, and France as demi-block and in England as chopper-lump.

This differ's from shoe-lump or "platform method" which some use or the Dropper lump method where the barrels are brazed to the lumps.

Terms are really confusing!!! Hell FAMARS is building mine too. Mine will be french greyed and will have scroll engraving, and a buffalo engraved on the bottom, I love color case harding but if you do a scene you cant see the engraving.Good luck on your gun!

Ed

According to SAAMI.ORG
DEMI-BLOCK
A type of double barrel construction in which the two barrels are fastened together by a dovetail arrangement.
MONOBLOC
The solid section at the breech end of some multi-barrel guns into which the barrels are inserted.
LUMP, CHOPPER
A type of lump which is integral with the barrel. See Lump.

According toHallowell & Co. This site also has drawings.

Chopper-lump barrels (called Demi-bloc barrels in Italy) - A method of joining the two separate tubes of a set of barrels where the right-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the right barrel and the left-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the left barrel. Chopper-lump barrels can be recognized by the fine joint-line running longitudinally down the center of each lump. This method of jointing barrels is the best because it is the strongest in relation to its weight and because it allows the two barrels to be mounted closest to each other at the breech end, reducing problems regulating the points of aim of the two separate barrels.

A set of 470 Chopper Lump Barrels in the hands of David Mckay Brown

Good stuff Rusty!

I've struggled thru most of terms and think I have a hold on them, but seems like every week I hear something different.

Ed

When talking to the Italians, be very clear with the term "demi bloc." This is definitely the most mis-represented style of barrel making. In my readings, "demi bloc" has always been credited to Henri Pieper - a German-born gunmaker in Belgium (late 19th century).

Demi Bloc = Winchester 21 barrels. They are Chopper Lump (with integral lumps on each barrel) but with the addition of vertical dovetail that joins the two barrels.

I can't understand why they would want 8K less for a more complex system of building barrels.

In my experience, when Italians say "demi bloc" - they may mean "mono block" or "chopper lump."

well it's no wonder champlin doesn't deal with them anymore.

sorry we don't do 450/400 choppers or we could help you.

a set in a real caliber 450, 470 or 500 would cost about $3,000 u.s. with ribs laid, forearm hook installed ejectors placed and ready to install on your action.

a 600 set of choppers is only $500 more.

call with any questions tom 814 858 0008

quote:

a set in a real caliber

Oh, thank goodness!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
When talking to the Italians, be very clear with the term "demi bloc." This is definitely the most mis-represented style of barrel making. In my readings, "demi bloc" has always been credited to Henri Pieper - a German-born gunmaker in Belgium (late 19th century).

Demi Bloc = Winchester 21 barrels. They are Chopper Lump (with integral lumps on each barrel) but with the addition of vertical dovetail that joins the two barrels.

I can't understand why they would want 8K less for a more complex system of building barrels.

In my experience, when Italians say "demi bloc" - they may mean "mono block" or "chopper lump."

Chris is right about the "DIMI-BLOC" being misunderstood by most people. The words DIMIBLOC is French, and mean latterly half block. This is used by every gun maker for a whole lot of DIFFERENT methods of attachment.

Merkels DIMI-BLOCK barrels are SHOE LUMP barrels! Heym rifles also use this type of barrels, but Merkel has since changed to mono-bloc barrels.

The original dimi-bloc was as Chris described, like the mod 21 Winchester and is a true chopper lump with an added feature of one blocked barrel being dovetailed to the other, the sweat brazed. This is not to be confused with a dovetail barrel set, which is a different system all together. Today the dimi-bloc is a shoelump barrel set, and is a perfectly acceptable way of building double rifle barrels.

The rifle seen with the seam around the barrels about three inches ahead of the breech is a MONO-BLOC barrel set, and consists of a one piece of steel that includes the lumps, beginning of the quarter rib about three inches in length, with two holes drilled through it to accept the barrels, and this is fitted to the action. Then the barrels are threaded into the mono-bloc exactly as the barrel is threaded into a bolt action rifle. The barrels are threaded for about 0ne inch in the muzzle end of the holes in the mono-block, and the rest of the rough chambered barrels are turned down to a press fit into the mono-block then the barrel ends are filed back flush to the face of the breech end of the fitted solid block of steel. The barrels are then ready to be finished chambered by hand, and the rim receptacles cut to proper headspace. From this point on the ribs, and wedges are laid, and the regulation begins. Actually this, though easier to make, is actually stronger that any other method of barrel joining, as far as holding the barrels together. But because it is the newest form is looked on a not acceptable by those who don't know better.

I have Shoelumps, chopper lumps, and dovetails, and mono-block double rifles, and I have owned shoelump (DIMI-BLOC) rifles that are over 120 yrs old, and they are as solid as they were the day they were made.

I simply would not worry about the Fomars being a DIMI-BLOC rifle, it will be shooting fine 50 years after you are in your grave! IMO Opinion chopper lump is not worth another $8K under any circumstances, and will not make the rifle shoot any better, or last any longer than the DIMI-BLOC!

Thanks for the explanation. I believe I misspoke on the barrels and meant to say Mono-block barrels. So there is no real reason to upgrade to the chopper lump barrel system especially if it is a deal breaker on the double.
Leonard