You can include African medium bores in this discussion if you wish.

However.

Seeing the pic of ozhunter with his recent stag taken with a 350 Rigby double has me thinking.

What was the most popular double rifle caliber and make of doubles used for hunting larger deer in Britain and Europe over the past century.
The 400/350 in both of it's loadings would have been suitable along with 9.3x74R but I'm sure a lot of working class hunters would have made do
with their 303's and 8x57's.

Please share your thoughts.

Rhodes

By past century, are we focusing on the
whole century or pre WWII type.

303 would have to be up there, although
you don't see that many second hand one's.

What about the 400/360's in all three forms,
one hell of a lot of guns were made in this
calibre. Also agree with 400/350 and later
on the 9.3 X 74R.

On a slight tangent, why do you think doubles
were used and not bolt actions ?

I would say the 303Brit would be one of the most used after WWI, But the 400/350 is likely the most often used before WWI, and after smokeless powder.

The reason there aren't many 303 doubles on the used market is because most of them have been shot so much they are shot out, and have been rebarreled or re-bored to someting else, and the origenals that are still in good shape are not being sold.

Before the full nitro rifles the cartridges like 500/450#1 express (Blk powder) were popular for red deer and wild boar, and small game used the rook rifles.

And Mac should know...he was there!!!

The 400/350 Rigby regulated for the 310 gr bullet has always been my ultimate light double but I have never owned one. The 350 No2 regulated for the 225 gr bullet would be second but a great round.

Very interesting topic. I don't think the Brits generally thought of a double rifle as a Continental game gun, although some were made in the .350, .360, .303 traditions, and even in the .333 Jeffery. Double rifles were considered dangerous game guns by the Brits, if I have my history correct. However, it was a natural movement from the traditional sidexside driven bird gun to the sidexside double rifle; and that's most likely why it was the preferred choice.

When you look at traditional British stalking rifles, you tend think of a Rigby bolt rifle, a Farguarshon, an Alex Henry, etc. I've never read accounts of where double rifles were the preferred choice for Highland stalking, or roe deer stalking.

I once owned a .62 caliber percussion double rifle built for Prince Albert, which was impeccably engraved and shot very true to its sights after 151 years. So I guess there was some desire for double rifles even early on with the aristocracy.

There is a .400/.350 Rigby double rifle for sale on GI that I would love to own for local deer and black bear. That would be a real treat.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
The 400/350 Rigby regulated for the 310 gr bullet has always been my ultimate light double but I have never owned one. The 350 No2 regulated for the 225 gr bullet would be second but a great round.

Sam, Mark C. (400Nitro) has a Double chambered for the 400/350 that is about as nice as any double I've ever seen, and shoots like a target rifle. I've tried every way I can think of to buy or trade for that rifle but he wont budge!

quote:

although some were made in the .350, .360, .303 traditions, and even in the .333 Jeffery. Double rifles were considered dangerous game guns by the Brits

I don't think you do have your history correct.

Heaps of doubles were made in the above calibres
you mentioned but also 400/360 which was a very popular calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

although some were made in the .350, .360, .303 traditions, and even in the .333 Jeffery. Double rifles were considered dangerous game guns by the Brits

I don't think you do have your history correct.

Heaps of doubles were made in the above calibres
you mentioned but also 400/360 which was a very popular calibre.

505G

You and I usually see eye to eye, so maybe this is an area where either you or I have a disagreement as to total numbers. I say, there are far less stalking caliber double rifles made than dangerous game guns. I know there are quite a few British stalking caliber doubles available now, but I think that has to do with demand vs. price. Hell yeah, I want a Rigby .400/350 double rifle, but will I pay $34,000 for it? Hell no.

I have owned double rifles in .30-06, 7x65R, 9.3x74R, .375 h&h. I consider all these to fit into the stalking calibers. However, I would not pay $25,00 plus foe any of them.

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify history, which may elude us all.

mdstewart

My mistake. I didn't mean to leave the DG part in the quote.

My focus was on "some were made"

I agree that the DR was viewed by Brits
as a DG forearm and made in those calibres.

I just think people under estimate the number
of smaller calibre DR's made.

Whilst not a Double, here is a Boar taken by a classic English stalking rifle. A 303Fraser.


Here is Rigby's version of the 350 which made for good results rolling this Stag at over 100m after a left and a right to the shoulder.

Ozhunter,

You are a spoiled man, getting to hunt all those wonderful animals with all those fine classic rifles. Just keep sending the pictures, and I'll keep being envious. Congrats.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

although some were made in the .350, .360, .303 traditions, and even in the .333 Jeffery. Double rifles were considered dangerous game guns by the Brits

I don't think you do have your history correct.

Heaps of doubles were made in the above calibres
you mentioned but also 400/360 which was a very popular calibre.

Right 505G. You are both right, there were more single shot rifles made in the calibers above, but there were more single barreled rifles made than any type of double rifle, and of the double rifles made in the deer chamberings in the UK literally all were s/s double rifles. The O/U doubles in smaller chamberings are most times European!

The 400/350s and like rounds I've seen were all S/S, and were all made in the UK. between the turn of the 20th century and world war II ..............................................................

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
By past century, are we focusing on the
whole century or pre WWII type.

303 would have to be up there, although
you don't see that many second hand one's.

What about the 400/360's in all three forms,
one hell of a lot of guns were made in this
calibre. Also agree with 400/350 and later
on the 9.3 X 74R.

On a slight tangent, why do you think doubles
were used and not bolt actions ?

500

Yes leaning towards the pre WWII era and the discussion has gone that way although we can't discount the fact that doubles have made a come back and the influence of metric calibers may be significant in the newer doubles.

re your tangent. No reason to leave out bolt rifles other than we are all double rifle men by choice so I was trying to guide discussion towards rimmed calibers suitable for doubles and single shots. A stint of bow hunting early on caused me to hang up my bolt rifle and lever gun and reach for my double when I hunt and I prefer to stalk and select game or take none at all. I'm sure cost alone would have meant bolt rifle cartridges would have been made in greater numbers.

A hunch tells me the 400/360's in all their variants may have been up near the top of the list for numbers as a woods cartridge although I have no numbers to back it up. 375 Flanged NE 2"1/2 hasn't been mentioned yet. I was thinking larger deer, so Red & Sambar & Moose size game. The standard over here seems to be .338win mag now days which suggests 400/350 would have been an equivalent back in the day, although plenty are taken with lighter calibers. Also, which of the cartridges were proprietary and which were available to the trade? This would have had a big bearing on popularity.

The 400/350 has always been my favourite.


Oz, the Rigby in your pic above. Is that regulated for the 310gr loading?

Rhodes

quote:

375 Flanged NE 2"1/2

Good one, had forgotten about that one.

The reason I said 400/360, apart from 3 versions
of the cartridge.

Numerous companies made guns in that calibre
especially Webley 0 just look at the number
of I think William Evans DR's in that calibre out there.

"which of the cartridges were proprietary and which were available to the trade ? This would have had a big bearing on popularity."

Agree.

Proprietary never did well.

ok

so far we have:-

BP 450 express
375 Flanged NE 2"1/2
400/360 NE's
400/350 Rigby
333 Jeffery Flanged
303 Brit

metrics

9.3x74R
7x65R

also:-
Hollands Super 30 (300 H&H Flanged) comes to mind as a classic deer round
375/303, I don't hear much about this one.

Should we include the under 30 cal's? Most of these seemed to have a rimless
and rimmed version so they may have been more popular as bolt guns.

Rhodes

quote:

Hollands Super 30 (300 H&H Flanged)

Do you reckon many of these were made ?

Or made outside of H&H ?

Probably no, so that would exclude it from the title.

But it's such a fine cartridge you can't blame me for trying to sneak it into the list ;-)

Rhodes

I'd like to see 318WR in the list as well
but not many made.

I agree with Nigel on the .318 WR. Let's not forget the great 360 No.2 as well.

The most common small bores for deer sized animals were the 318 and the 275 Rigby (7mm Mauser) and the most common rifle was the Mauser bolt action sporting rifle made by Rigby, Jeffery, and others. Maybe a 300 H&H here and there. John Taylor said it best when he said he had a blase attitude toward the killing of small buck, and it was just an aggravating nuisance to hunt shoot large antelope and really "beneath a hunter of elephant and buffalo". I think that attitude was common during the heyday of early African hunting. So the tools for that job were blase as well; meaning they were any small bore bolt action that was available. The double rifle was not generally thought of by the Brits as a small game platform (yes they made them but not as many as the big bores). So the sporting gentleman would have one or a pair of doubles for DG and a "magazine" rifle for deer sized game. For a one gun hunter, the .375 was recommended (and still is).
On the Continent is where all the small bore double rifles were historically used, and still are to this day.

Although decidely not popular,both Winchester & Browning produced "Grand European" O/U double rifles in .30/'06 and .270...

I should have read the OP carefully; if you include Europe, then the equation becomes entirely different. Double Rifles in small calibers (meaning 9.3 and below) are normal. (Drillings too). You will find, historically, as well as today, European hunters using far more doubles, percentage wise, than the rest of the world. Many times over what we in the US have used and use. Virtually no double rifles (members of this forum are excluded). So, the most common caliber for double rifle shooting in Europe is the 7x65R, closely followed by the 8x57JRS, and the 9.3X74R especially where moose are hunted, but many moose hunters like smaller calibers than we are accustomed to for such large game (6.5x55 for example) and others, if you included bolt actions. Many others have been and are still being used, but those 3 are at the top. Sales of new rifles bear that out.

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
Although decidely not popular,both Winchester & Browning produced "Grand European" O/U double rifles in .30/'06 and .270...

Winchester had the same problem as Sabatti, they didn't regulate them.

Once RE regulated, they were damn good guns,
even for an O/U.


dpcd
Agree. I think 8 x 57 was mentioned early on.

It's interesting that DR's used far more
in Europe than the UK, maybe a case of
the type of hunting - high seats - and
driven game, driven boar etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
Although decidely not popular,both Winchester & Browning produced "Grand European" O/U double rifles in .30/'06 and .270...

To be more accurate neither Winchester nor Browning made the "Grand European". It was made in Japan for Winchester by a Japanese O/U shotgun maker, may have been Miroku, but maybe another maker.


Winchester had the same problem as Sabatti, they didn't regulate them.

Once RE regulated, they were damn good guns,
even for an O/U.

The above seems to be a problem with shotgun makers trying to get into making double rifles! Most double barreled shotguns are regulated in a jig that simply places the 30 inch pattern more or less on top of a 30 inch pattern of the other barrel @ 30 yds. That simply doesn't work in a double rifle. The shotgun maker regulate or have one double rifle regulated by the traditional method, then set the barrels in a jig and adjust the jig to hold all the barrels chambered for the same cartridge in the jig and solder or more often braze the wedges in, thinking they will all be automatically properly regulated. The thought seems reasonable to people who do not know how to perform a proper regulation.
I have a Winchester Grand European chambered for 9.3X74R that is a perfect example of the fact that that method works acceptably with a double barreled shotgun but that type of regulation doesn't work with a rifle! The Grand European, and the Sabattis taught a lot of folks that a double rifle that is not properly regulated is a very expensive mistake, that costs even more to fix!

quote:

by 505G

dpcd
Agree. I think 8 x 57 was mentioned early on.

It's interesting that DR's used far more
in Europe than the UK, maybe a case of
the type of hunting - high seats - and
driven game, driven boar etc.

The 8X57JR and JRS are both very good hunting cartridges in both double rifles and combination guns. Neither of those cartridges get the credit they deserve. I have taken a lot of north American of all sizes with the 8mm cartridges in bolt rifles, combos, and double rifles, and have found them to be real killers with good bullets.

I also agree that European type hunting is one reason so many folks hunt with double rifles, and that most of them are O/U doubles. Double rifles regardless of chambering made in the UK are S/S doubles.

.........................................................................

Mac

"Winchester Grand European chambered for 9.3X74R"

This was one of the first one's I saw.

A guy here in Aus re regulated a whole heap
of them and they shoot really really well now.


Interesting comment re Shotgun makers
going into making Double rifles.

It is certainly true for the two you mentioned.

I don't think Beretta had that problem though !
but of course have been doing it far longer.

Re SxS and O/U, isn't it interesting that
Euro are mainly O/U and the UK SxS.
Simpson is one Euro I can think of who
made SxS as I have seen a number of 318WR's.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

Interesting comment re Shotgun makers
going into making Double rifles.

It is certainly true for the two you mentioned.

I don't think Beretta had that problem though !
but of course have been doing it far longer.

Baretta double rifles are regulated in the traditional way, but Beretta doesn't make their own S/S double rifles, but I'm not sure about there O/Us.

Some of the Browning O/U doubles were made in Japan as well by a shotgun maker, I think was the same maker who made the Winchester, double rifle and Winchester 101 O/U shotguns.

Mac

Who made the Brno (I think) Double rifles ?

Big, heavy things in I think 375H&H.

Updated list with some new additions. Focusing on DR's.
I've put an * next to those suggested as most popular.

Brit:-

BP 450 express
375 Flanged Mag
375 Flanged NE 2"1/2
360 No2
*400/360 NE's
400/350 Rigby
333 Jeffery Flanged
*318 WR
30 Super
*303 Brit
*275 Rigby (bolt guns?)

Metric:-

9.3x74R
*8x57R
*7x65R

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Mac

Who made the Brno (I think) Double rifles ?

Big, heavy things in I think 375H&H.

I really couldn't say for sure, but I believe they were actually made by BRNO. BRNO made some very strong rifles over the years.

They may be ugly, but they are hell for strong. I think it was Mike Jines who had one chambered for 458 Win Mag, that was re-chambered to 458 LOTT, with not one problem. Bal74 owns it now. It shot very well where we (the DRSS) were invited to attend a one day shoot at Monty Kalogeras's SAFARI SHOOTING SCHOOL from one of our DRSS annual get together/fun Hunts at 4K ranch near Brady, Texas. I would have re-chambered it to 450NE if it had been mine but it posed no problems with the Lott.

Don't know much about smallbore British SxS's but did have an O. Geyger best grade German SxS built in, I believe, 1926. It was 8x60R and shot beautifully and was a beautiful rifle. Cases were made from 9.3x74R brass. I would assume it to be a typical continental double. Have had several 9.3x74r's and a couple of 30-06's also, a Valmet and a Winchester. Really liked the Geyger though. Wish I could have kept it as I really made a bad deal when I traded it.

Just a note to add one thing here!

The 400/350 and the 9.3X74R are practically the same cartridge. The brass for the 400/350 is simply running a 9.3X74R brass in a 400/350 die to neck the neck down to take a .357 bullet, rather than a .366 bullet. In reality they are the same cartridge with slightly different bullet diameters by .009.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Let's not forget the great 360 No.2 as well.

don't forget the .256, or 6.5mmx53r, a real classic with the 160 grain bullet.

I agree with MacD37's post about many small bores being shot out and re-bored.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of double rifles that had been transformed into .410 or 28ga shotguns. I've wondered how many were actually shot out or if some were re-bored because of difficulty of obtaining ammo.

Lot's of nice Rook rifles also became shotguns.

quote:

Originally posted by MACD:
I agree with MacD37's post about many small bores being shot out and re-bored.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of double rifles that had been transformed into .410 or 28ga shotguns. I've wondered how many were actually shot out or if some were re-bored because of difficulty of obtaining ammo.

Lot's of nice Rook rifles also became shotguns.

I think most of those re-bores were done in the USA! Many were brought home from WWII as war trophies, and most didn't even know what the rifle chambering was even if ammo had been available and it wasn't in most cases.

Several double rifles were brought home and re-bored to 20 and 16 ga shotguns.

I have seen a large amount of Martini 577/450 single shot rifles bored out and chambered for 16 ga shotgun shells. What a waste!

What abut all those lovely 350 Rigby's (of both sorts) that were rebored to 9.3X74R and sold to Europe in the hundreds ?

And the few 369 Purdey's that were rebored
so now even less exist in the original calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
What abut all those lovely 350 Rigby's (of both sorts) that were rebored to 9.3X74R and sold to Europe in the hundreds ?

And the few 369 Purdey's that were rebored
so now even less exist in the original calibre.

Maybe we should ask the primary players; Holland & Holland, Dickson, AGL,,Westley Richards, and others who have historical records to show the number of British stalking double rifles vs. the number of DG double riles.

I may be completely off base here, but I would love to know the real numbers from the top builders.

quote:

Originally posted by Rhodes:
Updated list with some new additions. Focusing on DR's.
I've put an * next to those suggested as most popular.

Brit:-

BP 450 express
375 Flanged Mag
375 Flanged NE 2"1/2
360 No2
*400/360 NE's
400/350 Rigby
333 Jeffery Flanged
*318 WR
30 Super
*303 Brit
*275 Rigby (bolt guns?)

Metric:-

9.3x74R
*8x57R
*7x65R

Do not forget the best of all (in my opnion): 8x75 RS (roughly equivalent to the 300 H&H magnum)

There are many Continental 7x57R doubles floating around. It is still popular in Europe as well as the 6.5x57R to a lesser extent.
The Brits though partial to the Mannlicher due to weight, magazine capacity, availability, and cost built some doubles in 6.5 (.256). I have a Gibbs in 6.5mm (6.5x53R).
For myself, I prefer my Westley in .32 Special. A marvelous deer dumper.