I have been toying with the idea of using 300gr. bullets in lieu of the 400gr used for regulation of my Sabatti. So far I have come up with two options. 1. Hornady 300gr. intended for the .405 with a diameter of .411. While I don't think the minor increase in diameter is problematic I wanted to hear from others. 2. Cast lead 300gr bullets. I haven't messed with cast bullets in rifles and kind of expect that the velocity will be a bit high for using cast. Using the 75% rule I would reduce the bullet from 400 to 300 and use the same powder charge. With a 400 gr bullet it pushes just shy of 2100 fps so expect that it would be faster with cast.

Feedback and ideas on this notion would be appreciated.

Eric

The 405 Winchester bullets should do just fine. You might do a search for previous threads. The 75% rule should put you right on target. Search for 75% rule in double rifles forum.

I've done lots of shooting with 300 grain Hornady fp and sp. Use same load of powder as 400 and tweak for regulation. My old Hollis has been a little tricky handling crossing. My gun is a .411 so bullet matches bore. I'd have no hesitation about shooting .411 in a .410 bore as long as a fired case accepted the bullet readily. I've also used 5744 for reduced loads with good effect. bob

I shoot the Hornady .411s in a Douglas .410 barrel all the time; .001 in a soft (relatively thin) jacketed bullet is nothing. I am going to stop making .405s with the spec .412/.413 barrels and use .410s; they are more accurate and I still don't know why they were made that big to start with.

Been using 320gr cast LBT GC WFN in my Ruger, w/AA5744,F215,no filler, LBT blue lube, drive those to 2040fps, within 10 ft of the Hornady 400, no issues. Whether or not they'll regulate, in the Sabatti, is another question. Data is avail from Western Powders. I have 300gr Horn and 350gr TSX to try one day, but, the cast has worked well enough, that I haven't bothered, yet.

Eric,
My Sabatti 450/400 has a .4115 groove diameter and shoots the 300 grain Hornady's just fine, they regulate at 2350 fps.
For cast bullets I'm using a RCBS 416-350-FN, heat treated and sized to groove diameter. They shoot better than any jacketed bullet I have tried.

Thanks for the all of the helpful info. When I was younger I used to cast bullets with my father. For the time being I don't have any equipment to cast my own. This means a parallel search for a source of cast bullets of either 300 or 400 grains. The use of cast also brings up the question of gas checks. I see 209jones checks his what about you Idahoshooter? What BH do you shoot?

I'm shooting the cast bullets at 2150 fps so I do use gas checks. The bullets have a brinnell hardness of 22 when measured on a LBT hardness tester.
If you are looking to buy cast bullets look up Montana Bullet Works, they have quite a few designs in the .410-.412 diameter range.

If you can get them to regulate even close you can save a bunch of money by using 210 gr pistol bullets for the 41 magnum. They only run around $30 per box of 100. Somewhere on AR there are some load suggestion. Some guys are just using a case full of "Trail Boss" as their load. Pushed at 1,500 to 1,800 they would still be pretty tough on a boar hog.

quote:

Originally posted by BayouBob:
If you can get them to regulate even close you can save a bunch of money by using 210 gr pistol bullets for the 41 magnum. They only run around $30 per box of 100. Somewhere on AR there are some load suggestion. Some guys are just using a case full of "Trail Boss" as their load. Pushed at 1,500 to 1,800 they would still be pretty tough on a boar hog.

CAUTION! CAUTION! I think you should define your definition of "a full case of Trail Boss" for the new loader or someone new to loading for reduced loads with Trail Boss. If you mean full to the bottom of the bullet, as long as it's worked up to from the 70% rule, that's probably fine. But to fill the case completely, then compress Trail Boss is nothing short of building a bomb!! Trail Boss is specifically meant to NOT BE COMPRESSED.

Just to restate the load for trail boss, and it works across the board for all Nitro Express cartridges, use the following:

Measure the point on your brass case where the bottom of the properly seated bullet will sit. Fill the case to that level, then weigh the charge. Multiply that by 70% and that is your start load. From there, you can work up to the max load which will be that original charge weight of filled to the bottom of the bullet line. Again, NEVER COMPRESS TRAIL BOSS!!!

Good of you to let us know,it is sad when an accident happens,I have seen a gun blown up by 5744,it was not a pretty sight.

Hence why you need to be so careful / extra careful when quoting load data on a forum.

Montana Bullets Works is off line until 1 June. I guess they had a personal emergency to deal with. The notion of using 350-370gr cast bullets has piqued my curiosity.

Bill,
Not to steal this thread, Do you know what miss step caused that blow up? Perhaps a double charge with the 5744? Just curious as I use some 5744 loads.
Thanks
Bfly

Black fly,
the two cases that I am aware of,one was caused by too much 5744,the second was caused by a filler on top of the powder,5744 is a very hot powder & does not require a filler.

Todd, You are right. I didn't finish my own sentence. Don't compress Trail Boss.

Forgive my ignorance but ... if cast bullets can be driven happily, without stripping, at 2100fps, why did early smokeless loaders feel the need for for jacketed bullets?

My Jeffery 450/400 shoots the Hornady 405 Win 300gr flat points great with the same powder charge as I use for 400 gr Woodleighs.

The bores measure .411.

sambarman,
I reality the lead bullets of that era were much soft than our 'blended' cast bullets of today. Deformation was the rule of the day for lead bullets.

With the recommended charges from Western, you'd have a pretty full case on a double charge. Not sure what the the case cap is.... I think the largest charges of any powder, I have seen, were 85-86gr range, which is quite a bit less, than what a double chg would be, with what I am using for charge weights on it. Even a min start chg will be up to 75gr or so. If you doubled it, not hard to spot. With the charge weight I am using, it would very probably overflow on a double chg.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
sambarman,
I reality the lead bullets of that era were much soft than our 'blended' cast bullets of today. Deformation was the rule of the day for lead bullets.

That's interesting, Rusty. I knew Baker liked soft lead in the .577 but would have thought that, since the Linotype was invented in 1884,
tin/antimony alloys might have been thought of for bullets before cupro-nickel and guilding-metal jackets.

Sambarman,
So you believe that their cast bullets were 'hard enough' that jacketed bullets were not required?

Eric:
The .411" 300-grainer have worked for me for years. If I shoot .410" in my double the group size nearly doubles. I shoot 80 grains of IMR 4831 with both 400- and 300-grain bullets and accuracy is fine.
Cal

Good deal. Thank you for the response Cal. I picked up two boxes of the 300 gr. Hornady bullets. I am looking into the prospect of casting my own again. This week I am going to try to assess the lead supply around town.

Eric

Eric:
All I've used is wheel weights for 35 years.
Cal

Struck out on wheel weights today. Even the smaller independent shops won't part with them. Since we live near the coast apparently they are already going towards the production of sinkers.

I've had no luck with light bullets in my Sabatti 450/400. No luck with the 400 gr ullets either. Still trying bullets and loads. No sign of dremel work on my barrels, viz why i bought it (along with the supposed target showing goo regulation)

Still experimenting w!ith bullets and powders. Trying CEBs next

Good luck

Any body want to lend me a dremel tool in a couple months?

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
I've had no luck with light bullets in my Sabatti 450/400. No luck with the 400 gr ullets either. Still trying bullets and loads. No sign of dremel work on my barrels, viz why i bought it (along with the supposed target showing goo regulation)

Still experimenting w!ith bullets and powders. Trying CEBs next

Good luck

I am curious,have you tried factory ammo yet,by that I mean whatever ammo your gun was regulated with? are you using a chrono when checking loads?

I've used .410 diameter/300 grain Hawk Bullets in my K-gun with very good success. Shooting a 2.5 - 3" group at 50 yards using the same load I use with the 400 grain Hornadys