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Here's a question for the forum - what would you say has a better medium term investment value - a quality double rifle or a quality shotgun ?

To put an amount on it say you have USD 25.000 to put down.

Any thoughts ?

Charlie

And PS not I am not looking to spend that on a gun at the Moment.

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I could be wrong but I think there are a heck of a lot more quality shotguns in the world than quality double rifles, so supply and demand might make the rifles better investments.

On the other hand, there are fewer places to use a rifle than a shotgun and the price of rifles and liquidity suffer when the safari business is down.

I also think a $2,500 Beretta probably functions just about as well as a $60,000 Boss. On the other hand, an inexpensive double rifle cannot compare to a quality rifle in terms of reliability and functionality. Certainly people count on a rifle to function 100% of the time when hunting dangerous game, whereas no one has ever been killed by a pheasant or a duck.

Interesting question.

The double rifle. If someone wants what you have they may not be able to go to the next dealer and find it.

If you have a fine H&H Royal shotgun for sale, the buyer can find a dozen or more elsewhere.

I've seen some of the maker's ledgers. It is amazing how many more shotguns were made than double rifles. It would be interesting to tabulate a count someday.
Cal

I would expect a high-end shotgun made by one of the premier British or Italian houses would carry it's value best. Double rifles are the weapons of African hunting, and with the increasing pressures on trophy imports, gun regulations, and hunting there in general, the future use of a DR may be unfortunately waning. Remember the value of DRs back in the 1970s when ammunition wasn't available?

Also, based on my experience being so close to Griffin & Howe, I would bet that the sale of shotguns over $25K is at least 20 times that of double rifles.

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Interesting one. Without doubt quality shotguns outsell bespoke doubles - no doubt by a significant multiple. I would guess something like 25:1 or even more.

But as Cal points out there is the rarity factor. There are hundreds of top Hollands, Purdeys, Bosses etc whereas the pre owned DR market is limited and I would guess predominantly US based ( May be wrong here ).

Did read some stats that cited some of the best post WW2 investments returns based on % increases pa as being modern art, English shotguns, top French red wines and carriage clocks. But hard to pull up historic value stats on shotguns.

I would think that the opportunity to actually use a bespoke shotgun in the field is higher than a DR, unless you live in the country with game in your back yard, but even the shot count will likely be lower.

I suppose the answer is - go for both !

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I would say either one with some history. But than again I would not invest $25,000 in either. I don't think it's enough money to invest in Guns. I would put it elsewhere.

In truth something that YOU can use and enjoy whilst waiting for the day when you'll realise the profit on your investment.

A fine shotgun in your gun cabinet is pointless if you don't hunt birds. Same as a fine DR if you don't hunt the sort of game that needs it.

But...and as others say...DR rifles may, one day, have no raison d'etre. Like the Cape Gun or the Paradox.

So buy what you enjoy using. And use it. That way at least you'll have had the pleasure of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I would expect a high-end shotgun made by one of the premier British or Italian houses would carry it's value best. Double rifles are the weapons of African hunting, and with the increasing pressures on trophy imports, gun regulations, and hunting there in general, the future use of a DR may be unfortunately waning. Remember the value of DRs back in the 1970s when ammunition wasn't available?

Also, based on my experience being so close to Griffin & Howe, I would bet that the sale of shotguns over $25K is at least 20 times that of double rifles.

Good advice by biebs

Think about it - $600 ruger Alaska out shoots every double out there in accuracy.

I like double rifles but they are not great value investments - tied to African hunting and generally not suited to North American hunting.

The market for high end shotguns is massive - shorting clays, released birds, pigeon shooting - there will always be demand for high end shotguns.

Mike

How about supply and demand, gents?

There are a lot of fine shotguns out there and shotgun shooters. Far fewer double rifles and double rifle shooters.

For selling value, if I want a Royal H&H 12-gauge I can shop around until I find one for the money I want to spend. If I want a Royal H&H .500 nitro express… Well, you get the picture. Competition drives the market, setting the prices.

Biebs is from New Joisey. They speak another language there.

Cal

quote:

I want to spend. If I want a Royal H&H .500 nitro express… Well, you get the picture. Competition drives the market, setting the prices.

But, alas, the market is very, very fickle.

A Royal, if a self-opener, 28" barrels will always find a buyer. You've just got to buy it right to start with.

A Holland's .500 NE? Well remember "the last" .600 NE? Now haow much was that worth when it was, indeed, "the last"? And after, once Holland's started over again?

Same as all these things, classic cars, that market was once steady. But then became very volatile and some lost considerably.

Cal should pop in on that one, but I believe Holland made some sort of amends to the owner of the "last" 600NE.
I have a couple of English Guns in the safe. They were all bought "right", My London Best Shotgun has climbed in value and held, my Birmingham DR "Gibbs" has jumped in value but I believe that it has settled somewhat.
Both Guns get used and refurbished as needed.
Once had a gentleman chastise me for carrying my shotgun in our thick New England coverts, I pointed towards his brand new Suburban and said that my shotgun was 120yrs old and going strong while his Suburban would be cheap fill in 10 years.

I think the lucky owner of the "last .600 NE" was compensated by a gratis pair of Royal SLEs!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

So buy what you enjoy using. And use it. That way at least you'll have had the pleasure of it.

Great advice!
Just think of all the things we buy which steadily decline in value from day one - dang near everything!
At least you can derive a great amount of pleasure owning and using a classic rifle or shotgun whether it goes up in value or down which counts for something.

Also, I'm not convinced that the loss of hunting opportunities in Africa have all that much effect on the prices of big bore doubles.
What percentage of double owners actually take the trip and use their guns in Africa? 5-10% is about my guess.
And, I don't agree that double rifles are not suited to hunting in North America. Just ask Cal on that point.

Gents:
Since my name has come up here, two points:

The "Last .600" was ordered in 1970 and completed in 1975. It is spoken of, but no record of it, was that Holland was to also make a last .577 and a last .500 to honor the game and hunting that was to be no longer. Also, when Kynoch stopped making ammo that, too, was the end of an era. I have seen and handled this rifle many times and Holland still states it is their finest work ever produced.

In the 1980s when Holland was approached to make a .600 they had to decline as the last was indeed the last. So, the potential buyer asked of a .700. That is another story and I can go into the details if asked.

Anyway, in the years that followed the .700 many more requests came in for .600s. Enough that Holland asked the owner of the Last .600 to come to an agreement to resume production. The agreement was a pair of Royal 20 bore shotguns, a true pair but in separate cases. I have seen and handled these shotguns also. All of these guns remain unfired (except for proof testing, of course).

Second is the use of a double. Yes, the image of African hunting and a double rifle is what dreams are made from. But, Africa is not the end of the story. India saw more hunters than africa ever did in the vintage years and doubles were used there, too, as well as in South East Asia. A few doubles made it to the American west.

We hunt today for several reasons. Some hunt for meat, some for the outdoor experience, some to fill trophy rooms, some for the "book." etc. There is no right or wrong, it is our individual preferences. My reasons for hunting are to use the rifles I enjoy owning and shooting. (The same reasoning was when I owned two stunning 1969 Corvettes with 427s, they were my everyday driving cars. I didn't keep them just for show). When I was interested in Winchesters (the 1970s-early 1990s) I focused on the .405 and .50 express calibers. I took them to Africa and also hunted moose and caribou up in Alaska.

I sold the Winchesters and moved into double rifles beginning in the late 1980s. Not for investment or ego, but I loved the African stories, both old books and Capstick, and the rifles many of the hunters used. One rifle led to another and today doubles are my life. I have taken my doubles to Australia for three hunts and to South Africa and Zimbabwe and Tanzania for ten hunts and 2017 will see 1 or 2 more. 5 water buffalo, leopard, lion, croc, numerous plains game, and several hippo and cape buff have been taken. Elephant is the only remaining target. Yes, doubles are at home in Africa.

In the States, I have shot white tail, moose, grizzly, bison, and a bunch of caribou. I took a .450-400 to Idaho for elk a few months ago but it wasn't really a hunt, just a road "hunt" and nothing was seen except dozens of other hunters and their camps and vehicles. Many have told me doubles are "not American hunting" and I will do better with a scoped magnum. But, again, everyone hunts for different fulfillments--there is no right or wrong. While not bolt rifle accuracy a double will shoot to the shooter's level of marksmanship and with a mounted scope I have taken game to 195 yards (arctic caribou).

I guess I don't collect artwork as it would be boring to hang the object of my affection on a wall and nothing else. Rifles can be used as well as admired. I understand my hunting is more limited with a vintage double but it's my choice. My last moose was taken with my vintage .600. I flew to Galena, AK, boated 10 miles down the Yukon, and 40+ miles up Bear Creek. Cold and wet! I kept the rifle in a waterproof slip case, waxed the exterior with auto paste wax (this also fills the gaps between wood and metal), and gave the rifle a good strip clean after the hunt. But, for me, the enjoyment was far greater than if I used a synthetic stocked and stainless bolt gun. Again, no right and no wrong, it's just what I like.

Cheers, mates.
Cal

Cal, well said.

Don't put your eggs all in one basket.

The double rifle..

Ive never owned a double that I didn't double my money on within a couple of years, and the more expensive they are the more likely you are triple your money..The market has slowed down, but I see the next 4 years as a shot in the arse for gun sales and overseas hunts..Too late for me to get excited about as Im in simi retirement mode, roping and hunting too much, fishing a lot, and trying to find time to work, but just can't get around to it, sometimes I just can't remember to work, maybe Oldtimers or sweet demensia...

In case this is not perfectly obvious, for investment purposes, beware of buying any gun new. Only a celeb could ever get back from the loss of the 'new' premium, no matter how much inflation can sometimes make this seem untrue.

I chose the double rifle, and acquired a Holland & Holland Royal .375. My advice is it doesn't matter if it's a rifle or shotgun, if setting out to buy an investement don't buy anything you do not desire in the first place. You may have it quite some time, the pool of buyers who can play that game is limited.

Double rifle for investment profit?. Don't buy in the US. Find one in England, Europe etc. However since the supply is fund in the US one has more to choose from in the US. However, Buy what you like, that is the best investment of Joy and will last longer. Then you might get Lucky aften 20-25 years you will get a return.

It takes about 2 to 5 years to double your investment on a English double rifle, sometimes just overnight, regardless of what you paid for it, or at least that's been my experience..