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Hi Guys: Here is a question I often thought about when wanting to shoot groups with a double rifle. I want to work up a new load for my 470 NE Chapuis using IMR 4350. I want to see if I can get better groups than with RL-15 & H4831 I want to use 4 shot groups. How long do I wait to fire my second barrel? Should it be as quick as possible simulating a hunting experience? How long do I wait to fire the next two shots? Knowing that heating the barrels up, could that throw the second set of shots off? What do you guys think? Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | ||
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Just shoot it like you are shooting an animal. Bang Bang get settled between shots. Go look at your target walk back and do it again. | |||
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 Great question. Maybe the best discussion we've had here in a long time. I'm listening on this one for now. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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I ahave read somewhere that you should try to get the left barrel off no longer than 10 to 15 seconds of the right. Don't know if that is right. 465H&H | |||
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Just from a logic standpoint, since it is a DR, I would think that a shot from each barrel should be fired in fairly rapid succession, but with enough time to aim accurately; allowing one to judge the regulation of the load. A quick 2nd shot is why we hunt with doubles anyway, right? The barrels should be allowed to cool between "sets" to minimize the affect of heat. It helps to bring several rifles to the range that you need to shoot, as it will test your patience waiting for the rifle to adequately cool down between "sets" of shots. Just my 2 cents. | |||
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Hi Guys: Ok it makes sence to do a quick double shot, like when hunting. But sometimes when you can't get your DR to regulate, you have to shoot each barrel indepently to see if the left and right shoot to the same point of aim ? Again how long would you wait to shoot the second barrel, 5 minutes, ten minutes? Same goes for the second set. After you fire the first fast two shots. How long do you wait to test fire the next two fast shots? Patience was never one of my virtues... LOL I always take more than one rifle to the range when developing loads. But these doubles are a horse of a different color. Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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That's a new one on me. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I have seen some info on factory regulation targets that stated the shots were fired within 8 seconds. When working up loads I start out loading 4 rounds of each powder charge. I shoot a right and a left, then reload and shoot another right and a left. If I jerk/shank a shot I make a note of it. I repeat the 4 round test with the more promising loads. Once I think I have found the right powder charge I then load 20 of them. I shoot them at 25yds off hand, 50yds off hand and kneeling and at 100 yards kneeling and sitting. Baised on my shooting at 100, I may go up or down a grain and try again. I always shoot the right barrel first in this testing. After I have found "the load", I repeat the test shooting the left barrel first, to see it it makes any difference... In some doubles it can make a BIG difference if you shoot the left barrel first, especially at 100 yards. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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5-7 seconds from a cold barrel Ken DRSS, PP Chapter Life NRA Life SCI Life DSC | |||
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Regulating a double rifle is one thing, and Working up a load that will shoot to the regulation already built into the rifle is quite another! The regulator is working the wedges to make a double rifle shoot properly with a KNOWN LOAD! This is the only place where the phrase “REGULATING” applies, but there are two different “REGULATINGS” in double rifles, one is regulating the barrels and the other is regulating THE SIGHTS, and neither has anything to do with the process of working up loads. The regulating has already been done! Working up a new load that will shoot to the regulation that is already built into the rifle, is what we are dealing with here! What you are looking for is to place the centers of each barrel’s individual group on it’s own side of the aiming point, the distance between centers of the bores of both barrels apart, with the aiming point on the target half way between the centers of each barrels group. IOW shooting parallel To find this, 3 shots are fired from each barrel with every 2 shot group (one from each barrel) fired from cool barrels right barrel first every time. The time between right and left no more than 8 seconds apart. The barrels are to be allowed to cool between each RT/LFT shot group. With 3 shots from each barrel now find the center of each barrel’s individual group in relation to the aiming point on the target. The centers of each group is what you want to move, not the bullets holes. The best way to do this is to fire each barrel on a separate target side by side. Then lay one target over the other, and draw through the bullet holes on the top target onto the target below with a red ink pen. Then find the centers of each barrels group, and adjust the load up or down till the barrels are shooting parallel. Don’t worry much about the elevation, that can be re-regulated with a file or change of front sight! It is the parallel you want. Once properly loaded the rifle will shoot dawn range just like any other like chambered rifle. Once this is done to find the hunting composite group, you start with the barrels cool, fire rt/lft, with only the time it takes to get back on target, then re-load as fast as you can that do the next two the same way. This duplicates 4 shot on an animal and can be done very quickly with practice. However this last thing is for hunting/re-loading practice, not finding proper load that will shoot to the regulation. This sounds like a lot of trouble, but it only has to be done once to find a proper load for the rifle, and IMO, is part of the fun of owning double rifles! ......................................  ........................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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How close is the ele ?  "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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What I mean to say is load development and target practice should always mimic actual hunting conditions as closely as possible. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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If load developement is done properly the hunting groups will always be proper for hunting All parctice should be done with hunting in mind but developement is to find the load the rifle likes! In a hunting sittuation the first two will be identicle to the first two shown in the work-up, and all subsiquint shots will change as the barrels get hotter. However you will not get the precise shots shooting from field positions, that you get when shooting on a range. This doesn't only apply to double rifles but to any rifle. Shooting the way you do in the field will not find the proper load for the regulation built into the rifle. How far is the ele? makes no difference if your load is a proper regulating load. with that load the rifle will shoot as well as YOU shoot! Hey Nitro, did you buy another double or did you finally get yours to shoot? ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac Never got it to shoot with factory ammo, took it back. Have not found a 500 that I want yet. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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As fast as you can re-acquire the target. I always shoot both barrels, both to simulate fast field shooting and to keep both barrels worn the same. That method is real hard on hogs, though. | |||
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That's why I just pull both triggers at the same time when shooting for groups. I've found that works best for me! Please send my pictures of your ATTEMPT at this technique!!!!  DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Mac, Don't always agree with you on everything, but when it comes to understanding how a double rifle should be regulated, and how to get it to shoot for the gun owner, you're always on track. Great explanation, and better than most of us can explain using words. Mike JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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I think Mac has it down. I have always thought he explains it well. I do think the second set of 2 shots in hunting don't represent the true potential of the guns regulation. However, in hunting, the second 2 shots are usually at a moving target...making accurate shot placement more difficult anyway. George Caswell shot an elephant in Ethiopia from a sitting position. He shot both barrels, reloaded the extractor gun, and shot both barrels again...all in 5 seconds. You can see it on the film, with the clock in the corner. He can dump empties as smooth as I can raise a glass of single malt to my lips... My point is: You build your load to do the best 2 shot picture possible at the range...Bang-Bang! Then go hunting, and it will all work fine. ND  Stephen Grant 500BPE Joseph Harkom 450BPE | |||
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Hi Guys: I think my main problem was not waiting long enough for the barrels to cool for the second two shots. It seems quite a few times I would get decent first two shot groups. Then the second set would be out to lunch...alot!! I got decent one time two shot groups with 86 grains of RL-15.. and 1.6 in spread at 50 yards with H4198 @ 2185 fps on my chrony. My TEST targets (2) from Factory are 1.250 & .750 for two shots at 50 meters using federal factory ammo. I just can't seem to duplicate that accuracy. I will let them cool longer and see where that takes me. Thanks for all the info so far. Regards... Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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I hate to sound like a smart-ass here, but what relevence does this have with regards to hunting? If the right barrel of your rifle is on from a cold-bore perspective and then whenever you fire the left, it too is within sufficent poroximity of the first shot, then what does it matter if you wait 2-10-10,000 seconds between shots? On a good rifle this should matter nada. Really, I am asking this because as a long range bolt gunner, we allow moderate cooling down between shots to preserve barrel life, not to maintain accuracy. All of our zeros are "cold bore" and our heavy countour barrels are such as to mitigate any severe heat migration against the action / stock bedding contact points. So, I ask, just why anybody would care about timing if their DR is on, irregardless of the time between shots? With all due respect - somebody please respond intelligently - Thanks, Jeff | |||
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I have a little German double in 7x57 which after 4 shots( 2x2) truly starting speading like a shotgun + the brass extraction becomes sticky( RWS factory ammo). Once the barrels have cooled down after 6 min or so I can shoot 4 shots again where the accuracy is acceptable. However I doubt I`LL ever need shooting more than 2 shots( hopefully only one) on a hunt, so I can live with that the "shots-abillity rate" is not so high as my boltrifles DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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What happens after 10 seconds? You wind up shooting yourself in the foot, or what?  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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The time restraint is what the English gun builders recommend for maximum chance of bullets hitting the regulation. I havn't seen any material affect of waitng between shots up to a minute or two. Maybe that's because I'm not a good enough shot to see it. 465H&H | |||
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Ok, now I'm seeing what this about...Regulation process, not target shooting...Got it... I'm not a good enough shot to see any difference either BTW!!! | |||
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Hi Jeff: Yeah I think you are coming off a sort of a smart ass. I was never talking about hunting accuracy. I am talking about working up an accurate load with different powder charges of different powders. What, I am wrong to try and find the most accurat loading for my DR? Give me a break. Regards.. Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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Once you like your load; TRAIN as you Hunt: give him a right and a left, as soon as you re-acquire sights. You can always slow down, but it is hard to speed up sighting and shooting, accurately, and that is important on DG. Sorry, another war story; a guy I know fired his .416 from the bench probably 150 rounds, getting sub moa groups; phenomenal shooting. BUT, he forgot to realize that there were no concrete benches in the field, and he had trouble hitting from field positions. Train as you Fight. I was also on a Caribou hunt with a "double distinguished" rifle and pistol shooter. Long story short; he could not hit them; it was sad. | |||
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Will, I know you ask that tongue in cheek, but somewhere there is a neophyte reading this and sucking it all in. So In my 27 years of shooting doubles I have to agree totally with what Mac has offered up as proper technique. I was taught that 10 secs was the limit, and it has to do with barrels heating and the obvious effects on the second cartridge. I have seen a difference when i did not adhere to this methodology, so I know from experience it is so. Actually the possibility of shooting yourself in the foot rises with the time spent admiring the first shot, so yes that could be so as well!   Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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My bad man! Not my intention at all! It is just that sometimes I get into the mood of "shut up and shoot". You know what I mean... ....Nothing personal! Folks on this forum know me well enough to understand that I was by no means trying to humiliate you / desparage your inquiries. I'll leave it at that and apologize if I tweaked your nerves in any way! JW | |||
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Great explanation of testing loads. Wish I read this when I first started building loads for my first double a year ago. Let's go one step further; I am trying to build a load for my Antonio Zoli side by side in 9.3x74R. Factory target is two bullet holes touching. Distance of shots as marked on the target is 100 metres. How did they do that? What is the recomended way of shooting the double rifle for test load purposes? Were they standing/sitting, elbows on a table or elbows not resting on anything, gun in a shooting vice or off sticks? Kindest regards, Carpediem No politician who supports gun control should recieve armed protection paid for by those he is trying to disarm. Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-scotch in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!" Madly Off In All Directions | |||
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Will has only one trigger, does this mean he can't select which barrel fires first or do both barrels go off together when he shoots himself in the foot?????? Now on topic. I like regulating new loads for trial in the following manner at 25-40 yards. Sticks or offhand (hunting simulation) 2 quick shots on target (right and left) then reload and 2 more (total of 4) Then let the gun cool down. I clean about every 20 shots per barrel. If the load looks promising, I do the same thing with 6 shots (3 per barrel) to get relative groups and barrel spread. I try to have a spotter watch the impact to determine if the shots are crossing. (Not good results - may need to drop powder charge a bit) Good shooting Tetonka DRSS 450/400 NE 3in K-Gun | |||
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At Norma I check new batches of ammuntion to ensure they regulate the same as the previous batch. I fire four rounds as quickly as I can consistent with getting a proper sight picture and reloading without wasting time but also without undue haste. We use a good quaity shooting rest to help absorb the recoil... This is esentially the same procedure that Blaser, Krieghoff et al use when they shoot a test group to accompany the rifle to prove it is regulated. | |||
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To summarize, you are shooting from a standing bench, elbows on the table and poosibly some sort of rest for your forward hand? Kind regards, Carpediem No politician who supports gun control should recieve armed protection paid for by those he is trying to disarm. Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-scotch in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!" Madly Off In All Directions | |||
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