Well guys, on Saturday morning the 9/29 I am going to test fire a vintage

British built double in 450/400 3 1/4" caliber. I will be with another AR

member and of course I hope to find that the rifle performs/groups well.

Ten rounds of ammo loaded with 400 grn Woodleigh softs will be used to

put the rifle through it's paces. Let's be hopeful for a good outcome. Per-
haps my long search ends on the morrow.

Best of luck Jack! Hope this is the one!

good shooting jack !

Shoot um up, Cowboy! good luck, maybe your first load will be the one!

Good luck Jack!

Fred

Jack, it's saturday night at 11:00 pm eastern time and no range report from you !

sure hope that old gas pipe you were going to test didn't blow up ! you know how some of britians best can be.

So we are all waiting with bated breath to see if you bought it - the rifle i mean , not the farm.!

let us hear from you soon. and pls post pics, targets etc too !

cheers, tomo

Well guys, I will post for Jack he must still be in shock... It worked...We set set up the target at 25 yds. and set Jack up on a rest aiming at a 1.25 orange bull. Jack held for the bottom edge and with the first shot he hit at 2 oclock just out of the bull and with the second shot at 10 also just out of the bull total spread around 1 and 3/4 group..Jack was elated hopping around and this ended his search for a British double...
Then he stood and fired at the target and he was aiming for the tradmark on the target for a new aiming point... It was around 3/4 of an inch and missed it pushed the gun to the left, took a deep breath reset himself offhand and fired the left barrel and it too out the center of the trade mark...
Some might be asking why not the center ofthe bull well I sent down range about 8 shots and that target was a little ratty in the middle area...
He is still walking around with a big grin..

Way to go Jack... I know that feeling...


Mike

Yes men. The first two shots measured 1 & 5/8ths inch apart from the

CENTERS of each bullet hole. [Side by side - obviously not touching]

The remainder of the shots were all quite satisfactory too! The ORANGE

dot of the center of the bullseye measures 1.75" The first shot from

the right bbl was 1/8" outside the ORANGE and in the '9' ring at about

the 1:30 or 2:00 position. The first shot from the left bbl was half in

the ORANGE and half in the '9' black ring at the 10:00 or 10:30 position.

These two shots caused much happy yelling and dancing and hugging Mike

and more yelling and dancing and back patting and smiles and.....

Now a question though. The rifle action did NOT readily open after firing.

Taking a grip a bit further out along the bbls to get more leverage

allowed opening without any great challenge. What are the causes of such?

What are the costs potentially? The rifle opened without any difference

compared to it being unloaded, with the fired cases in the chambers, and

with live ammo not yet fired. The stiff opening only occurred right after

the rounds were fired. We never checked after only one shot. We always

shot two, then opened the action.

I am sure that Mark will weigh in on this as well. I had a similar problem with my William Evans. It turned out to be that the firing pin was too long and was "dragging" in the primer pockets after firing. Take a look at the fired brass and see what the primer pockets look like. If they have a seemingly deep indentation, also check to see if you can see a faint area around the indentation where it looks like the firing pin was dragged out of the pocket. JJ has not yet fixed mine because I have not sent it to them and intended to just give it to George in Dallas, but I understand that the fix is not a big deal whatsoever.

My rifle behaved the same way. Empty it would open fine, if I opened it on live rounds it was fine, after I fired it would open but with more effort than it should take. Mark diagnosed the problem at the DRSS shoot in June and once I looked at the brass I am convinced that is exactly what is wrong.

Good luck.

A firing pin that stays protruded into the indented primer will of course lock up the rifle so that it cannot be opened.

A protruded firing pin with no ammo in the chamber may also extend far enough to catch the edge of the chamber when the rifle is opened, and also prevent opening of the rifle unless the firing pin tip is bent or sheered off.

Firing pin too long?
Firing pin rough and needs polishing of its sides?
Old, thickened oil or grease in the action that is making things sticky?

Is there some other aspect of the spring-back mechanism that is making the firing pins retract poorly/incompletely?

As I typed out the question I was thinking the firing pin(s)

remaining in the protruded position the culprit(s). Thanks

for the opinions so far guys, and again I am thankful for Mike's

company and experience with these rifles.

Congratulations Jack,

I'm waiting to hear some details on the gun....

My Jeffery had the same problem being hard to open after firing. The pins were indeed dragging in the primers. You could see the drag marks on the fired cases. JJ fixed it and it wasn't very difficult or costly.

A friend of mine bought an I. Hollis 450/400 from George last year and it had the same problem. Seems to be a common but the good news is the fix is easy.

Firing pin protrusion after firing is not a big problem
and probably nothing wrong with the gun, especially if
the gun hasn't been used with modern ammo / primers before.

Older guns were set up to be used with the primers in Kynoch
ammo and these were a lot harder.

In addition, the shape of the pin may be wrong from wear
and so catch because of this.

I have all of my DR's checked and worked on by a gunsmith
and fixing the shape and length of the firing pins is one
of the things I get done.

Fed 215's are the worst offenders as they seem to be softer
than other primers.

Ditto 500N. Primer softness/hardness is part of the mechanism.

Even modern guns that sit unfired too long, or go without regular lock maintenance, will start doing this, and it may start showing up when you take it out in freezing weather and the action lubricant has thickened or lost lubricity, either by cold or by evaporative changes over time.

My Searcy/Ruger O/U had one firing pin start "dragging." The fix was just a cleaning and polishing of the firing pins and lubrication. My local smith, an expert on shotguns, used a wee bit of BreakFreeCLP when he was through.

My Merkel SXS started doing it after I had not fired it for a year and then took it out on a 20-degree-F day to shoot. Only the left firing pin was the culprit then. It went back to GSI in Alabama where Herbert-The-German simply cleaned and relubricated the lock mechanisms and installed a recoil pad while he was at it.

It may just be a matter of routine cleaning and lubrication.

I do not know what the "approved" lock mechanism lubricant is, especially for polar bear hunting below zero.

Congratulations Jack!!

Jack:

With respect to the .40+ caliber Flanged Nitros, by the mid '70s when production ceased, Kynoch had been the only factory ammunition in the world for 50 years, and DRs built up to that time were set up for this ammo. For these rifles, the condition you describe is NORMAL.

Kynoch ammunition was Berdan primed with either a copper (corrosive priming) or brass (non-corrosive priming) cup. These were quite large diameter cups - .254". Current ammo uses Boxer primers with a stainless .210" cup. Firing pin shape and protrusion that is ideal for the large Berdan cups often produces the result you experienced with the smaller Boxer cups. It's normal for these rifles to need a "pin job" for the newer ammo, and it isn't a big deal.

Another less common cause of the same malady is that wear throws the timing out. When this condition exists, the hammers don't lift off the pins early enough in the normal opening cycle after firing. That means that you're trying to open the gun with the hammers still resting on the pins, preventing retraction.

Sometimes both conditions exist, but neither are difficult fixes. However, they need to be done by a gunmaker that knows double guns intimately.

What make is this gun?
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Thanks to you all again.

Mark,

The rifle is the one from www.champlinarms.com which George Caswell

describes as: "...had to be made by Osborne as it has every trapping

of a true Osborne." It was originally retailed by Lawn & Alder and has

such engraving on the top of one of the barrels. I found the 28 inch

barrel length to be a non-issue. The trigger pull weight was a bit high

for my exact taste. I'd like to have the sears release with a little less

presure being required on the triggers.

Jack:

Just tell George about the hard opening issue. J. J. will know what to do.

I agree with George about that rifle being from Osborne. I've had 28s myself and never found issue with them either.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

What's the issue with 28" barrels ?

Never had a problem with them as well - and I often find it's the correct length for that weight
action of the gun they are on and works towards the overall balance of the gun.

And a 28"-barreled double rifle is like a bolt action with 24" barrel in overall length. Perfect.

The fact that it is 10-lbs. 6-oz. with 28" barrels means it must need those 28" barrels to balance.

I rather fancy a 27" or 28" set of barrels on my next "40" DR and SS.

I've owned, currently own and shot everything from 22" - 28" and although some are a bit barrel heavy for me (not so for others), if the gun is well balanced it doesn't seem to make much difference.

CONGRATULATIONS JACK !!

THE END OF A LONG HUNT ! TOM

Jack

Congratulations. The 450/400 is a great choice as we have discussed. JJ can fix the hard opening for sure.

Thanks for all the well wishes men.

The only "issue" with the 28" bbl length that I thought might pop

up was that they could feel "ungainly". They did NOT feel that way

during the test firing as it turned out.

Now for a business question.

Would you think that the "fix" to be done by J.J. is my responsibily

to pay for or Champlins? I just have NO experience here...

It would seem to me that George ought to be willing to bear that expense if the rifle was bought with that issue or if the sale is so conditioned. Ask him.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Would you think that the "fix" to be done by J.J. is my responsibily

to pay for or Champlins?

I think George will take care of it.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

The trigger pull weight was a bit high

for my exact taste. I'd like to have the sears release with a little less

presure being required on the triggers.

Big Five,

Why not send the gun back to him and pay him to fix the trigger pull weight as per comment below.

"The trigger pull weight was a bit high
for my exact taste. I'd like to have the sears release with a little less presure being required on the triggers."


And ask him to fix the firing pins at the same time ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Big Five,

Why not send the gun back to him and pay him to fix the trigger pull weight as per comment below.

And ask him to fix the firing pins at the same time ?

Nigel,

I am going to do this. That is, ask about my paying for trigger pull adjustment and George Caswell

covering the "sticky" firing pins or their "timing" as described by Mark C. [400 Nitro Express]

Good to hear.

Of all the guns I've put through gunsmiths, I have had the firing pins done on virtually all of them,
partly to make sure they are fine and for piece of mind.

Generally, most hadn't been touch for years so it turned out to be a wise move on my part.

I also found that if the firing pins needed doing, then generally the gun adn't been stuffed around with so I ended up taking it as a good sign !!!

I must say that shooting the full Nitro level loads in this .41 caliber

rifle was not at all unpleasant. To all the guys who have been touting

the 450/400 in the 3" or 3 1/4" length for the last 22 months, [as long

as I've been a member here] I whole heartedly thank you for sharing

your preference for this most excellent choice for a double rifle caliber.