Hi Gents
I am from Rotorua NZ and have lived with this rifle all of my 62 years.My dad paid 5 pounds in the 1940s for it as it was just a wallhanger as nobody could tell what caliber it was and it was going to be thrown away.Sadly my dad never saw the day when it was fired but did learn it was a 450 x 3 1/4".I aquired 5 empty cases some where along the way and spent years trying different black powder bullet combinations but it just would not regulate with these combos.About 12 yrs ago I was given some Swiss no 4 to try and with the remaining 270 gr lead paper patched bullets in front of 125gr it shot into 4" L&R at 50 yds but needed the 200 yd leaf up.Happy with that I put it away and it has not been used since.The writing of the day warned me that damascus was dangerous to use with BP let alone Nitro for Black and I risked blowing my face and hands off.The destruction of such a fine old rifle would have the gun police around to sell my children into slavery.
Then I found this site and there is hope I can use it with a NFB load, there is a large Red Stag on my farm I would love to shoot with this rifle.I know very little about this maker or the quality of his guns but this one is in very good condition and I hope will like a diet of nitro. The bores are as bright as when it was new and its still nice and tight.IT has Henrys A&T rifling. I dont know how to post photos which would help with getting info on quality and load data.
John

Is this a double or single barreled rifle?

Graeme Wright's book on British Double Rifles has several good loads as well as black. I shoot NfB loads in my Damascus barreled rifles w/o problems. They are lower pressured that the black powder loads.

John:
Email me at <pappas@mtaonline.net> and we can discuss more. I have a nfb load for the .450 bpe that should work for you. Email me all the specifics of your rifle and some photos if you can, including the barrel flats to show the proof marks.
Cal

It is a double rifle 28 3/8" barrels hammers with safeties.Perhaps Cal can post the photos for me.

I don't have any specifics on your gun but... I am a huge fan of E. Paton. I own two of his 16 ga, back action, side lever, damascus barrel shotguns. Both are part of multi gun sets (separate sets unfortunately).

I like them better than my Purdeys.

Bill

I am also a fan of Paton. I used to own a percussion hammer double rifle in .62 caliber made by Paton & Walsh, Aberdeen, Scotland. It was built for Prince Albert in 1859 as I recall, the same year he became critically ill. It was highly engraved with multiple stags, pineapple inlays, and rose/scroll all over, and beautiful Damascus. Prince Albert died without ever utilizing the rifle as I recall. I regrettably sold it a few years ago, as I have regrettably sold a lot of guns over the years. E. Paton was a first class gunmaker, and you should be honored to own that one.

I am pleased to hear there are other Paton fans out there.This is the only Paton rifle that Ive ever seen or heard of and the only damascus double Ive handled so I was never able to compare it with others but it did appear well made and of very good quality with such fine engraving.I own 75 firearms but this old girl just fits and feels so right and steady in my hands.Really looking forward to working up some nitro loads with ADI AR2207 which is IMR4198 or very close.Soon to have 300gr and 350gr jacketed bullets to play with.How much filler is the norm to stuff on top of the powder?
Looking out my window I can see the Red Stag that will get knocked over as soon as it is on target. He's a real nasty bugger that will attack people and vehicles that get too close not the sort of genetics I want in the herd.

John:
Your Paton is on my website. I posted three pics. I can't figure out how to post pics here but I'm sure another can help. Good luck reloading with your fine rifle. She is a beauty.
Cal

John

I have a mate in NZ that might be able to help you. Lives in Christchurch.

Not only help but probably reload some cases
for you as well.

John - PM sent with my email. Pl send me the photos & I am happy to post them.

Cheers

BTW - welcome to AR. You must get hold of Graeme Wright's book on shooting the British double rifle.

Here are John's photos. Amazing rifle & Hendry rifling in the bore!

John,
That rifle s a beauty! Loading 4198 NfB loads is fairly easy if you pay attention. The number to remember is 40% of the original black powder charge as a start. That will be very close, I load three doubles with NfB and they are all within a % or two of that #. Double check all your charged cases for a double charge, it's easy to do with this powder and big cases. For the filler I use dacron pillow stuffing, as much as you can reasonably compress in the charged case, leaving a bit of room for the bullet. I'd use cast bullets rather than jacketed. 300 Gr will be a good one, I wouldn't go any heavier. A fairly hard cast bullet should do fine for that stag, especially if it has a good sized flat tip.
Best

That is the cat's ass. A fantastic rifle and more them worth saving. Great shooting.

Mike

I have ordered Graeme Wright's book should be here in approx 2 weeks.By then all of the components needed should on hand and I can bring it back to life.I've been encouraged by your posts and will update this post with the results.
John

The frustration begins.Graeme Wrights book arrived on time.I picked up some AR2207 [H 4198]some Federal 215 primers and went to all 3 gun shops in town. No.458 projectiles in town and none at there suppliers and not sure when any are due in the country.Last weekend I shot off the 5 BP loads I had. To get a benchmark of velocity, recoil, accuracy.From a clean dry barrel R & L 12" apart R at 5 o'clock L at 11o'clock POI in the center WHAT THE!! The next 3 went into 3" group 1 1/2" low with RB impacting right of center from uncleaned barrels. Load was 125gr Swiss #4 270gr PP velocity avg 1719 fps 15 ft out. Next I loaded 2x 300gr Sierra FP HP [I only had 28]with 44gr ar2208 and dacron filler bad group with unburnt powder and velocity of 1202 and 995 fps Next I went with 45gr ar2207 and foam filler rod .445" dia.R 1656 fps 2 1/5" low L 1626 fps 3 1/5" low and 2 1/2" left of R B. Next 46gr ar2207 foam filler R no reading on chrony 3/4" below last R B. L 1488fps 2 1/5"lower and 5" left of R B. I stopped at this point as the last two filler rod pieces had one side only burnt off. The 45gr load left no filler to find. Today I picked up the next size up .577" dia but this is a squeeze into the case, is this ok.There are still some 300gr Sierra's left and I have some 420gr lead and some 340 HP lead [45-70] given today by a mate to try. Any ideas for the next move? with such a limited supply of projectiles.

You're bouncing around too much! Slow down and work with 1 powder that's recommended and vary the loads . Use lots of Dacron to fill the space. Not just a tuft!
Try to stay with hard lead bullets and be kind to those old Damascus barrels.

John

As per post above and I will add - Change ONE
variable at a time otherwise you won't know what is what.


And break your post up into logical bits will you, one load above the other.

It is nigh impossible to read and understand with data everywhere so I gave up reading it.

First I think the rifle that you have is the apex of the rifle makers art. It would not hurt to slug your bores. You may need a larger bullet. Some of the BP guns depended on bullet upset to fill the groves. This may not be a quick easy labor of love to get the rifle shooting as you would like.

I would get the Graeme book first and read it carefully. You don't need to be in any hurry. I think that you may wind up either casting bullets or having some one do it for you. Ammo for that period gun was usually put up with paper patch. Again go slowly and change only one thing at a time.

Have fun.

I went through quite a few different bullets with my 450 express rifle before I found the good one.

Slug those bores first.
If the .458 bullet is right for your barrels...

I had seen many folks down in Australia and New Zealand win with the Woodleigh 350gr round nose soft point bullet -- but *specifically* the one built just for the black powder express rifles.
There have been two different Woodleigh bullets in the same weight and shape. They're not the same. I've found that the Hornady 350gr SNRN #4502 is great for the BPE rifles. A few years ago I sectioned the current Woodleigh (designed for the 458win) and the Hornady #4502
The Hornady has a softer core and a thinner, softer jacket.
I think the Woodleigh BPE 350snrn is discontinued. I've also heard of a Taipan 350gr bullet that also works well with the BPE rifles, but it's said to be very very soft - perhaps too soft.
Look for the Hornady. It's great in these rifles and it's great on game.

Try Varget powder. Varget is consistent and gives pressures (somehow) that tend to work great with the straight and bottleneck 450BPE double rifles.

I use dacron - and as noted above use plenty of it, not just a little fairy fart. You need the dacron to lightly compress. In my (bottleneck 500/450) I use 21 grains of dacron. You'll likely need a fair bit less, but you need to experiment and you need to weigh it like any other load component.

In the big cases I use the Fed 215 primers.

Good success to you on this load development project.
Varget/Fed215/Hornady is likely to get you quickly to success.



By the way -- that rifle is marvelous.
Really great find there, congratulations to you.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker
It is .458. The Hornady 350gr are on order with the next shipment due in 3 months but that dosent mean they will be able to get any. I am also trying to get the 350 Woodleigh for 450 BPE
out of Australia but have not heard back as to availabity. The Taipan is a new one for me that I will look up.

Ar 2208 is Varget and was the first try with 13 gr of Dacron but with unburnt powder and a velocity spread of 200 fps I didnt go further with my limited supply of projectiles. I think ar 2208 proberly needs the heavier bullet.
I will have a play with the cast lead bullets, as there are only 10 340gr and 13 420 gr this isnt going to get me very far. It will still be fun and untill I try who knows.

Can you guys stop shooting your 450's so there's a few packets spare that can get sent down under.

John

Taipans are made in Aus although not sure
if they still are.

You might also try The Bullet Factory.

If you get stuck re the 350gn Woodleighs,
send me a PM.

John-

That unburnt powder issue could also be *not enough powder*
What was your velocity? Looks like something around 1200fps..? Sounds like too light a load.
Expect more than 1900fps with varget behind a 350gr bullet.
Not enough case tension (neck tension) can also give you the unburnt powder issue - also the wrong primer. Are you running the Federal 215 magnum primer? Make sure you have good tight necks, a bit of compression on the dacron, a good load of powder, and the big Federal 215 magnum primer.

Thirteen grains of dacron might be enough.
If I had a known good load of Varget for the straight case I'd list it here. Check around this forum or over on nitroexpress and see if someone's listed their varget load.
Also look in Grame Wright's book, I think there's a straight case varget load in there.



Cheers
Tinker

Hi John

How are you getting on with your rifle?

I have no experience at all shooting old doubles but I do have a reasonable amount of experience shooting black powder. If I have understood you correctly, you have a rifle that is proofed for both black and nitro powder. If it were mine, I'd probably stick to B/P given the rifle's method of construction. I don't know how much you know so excuse me if any of the following is akin to teaching granny to suck eggs.

If you intend shooting B/P just remember that cleaning is everything. Not only for consistent accuracy but to avoid ruinous corrosion. Hot soapy water is the best method, sucked in and out of the barrels from a bucket with a tightly patched cleaning rod followed by lubrication and follow-up inspections. Cleaning patches should be changed regularly during the cleaning process. Cleaning a B/P rifle properly will probably take you at least half an hour and more. I hate to rant on about this but with B/P, THOROUGH CLEANING IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL!

As far as getting it to shoot goes, as others have suggested, I would first of all slug the bore. If the rifle is to shoot to it's potential you need a bullet that's a proper fit. That is your first priority. If nothing is available commercially, you may need to get a mould made for the rifle. Before you do that you will want to decide whether or not to use paper patch or grease groove bullets. Typically paper patched bullets are un-grooved - typically but not exclusively. Bullet hardness is also an issue. Typically you will need to use an alloy - something harder that is, than pure lead. Paper patch bullets are a lot of fun and can be extremely accurate but so too can grease-grooved bullets. Just remember, a badly patched bullet can be a total disaster. So, if you are paper patching it must be done correctly. Usually, good paper patching takes quite a bit of effort to perfect.

Once you have a bullet that fits it should just be a matter of filling up the case with powder (possibly F but probably FF). A drop tube is necessary to do this properly. Obviously, with B/P you can't have any voids between the bullet and the powder. Card wads and mixtures of beeswax and lard can be used if you want to shoot reduced loads. Experiment with bullet seating as required.

There are 3 books I'd recommend. Two are by a chap by the name of Paul?? Mathews (one called The Paper Patch as i recall), and the book by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe called the SPG Lubricants B.P Cartridge Reloading Primer. These are old books now and may not be readily available. Not sure.

Anyway, its a beautiful rifle. Good luck with it.

John,

That is some exceptionally fine engraving! Beautiful weapon!

Brett

John

Have you called reloaders in Auckland and Dead Eye Dick in Levin?

Look at the barrel flats or the side of the barrels to see what load the rifle was made for. I understand that often they perform exceptionally with originally designed loads. I would then us Wright's formula to load Notro for Black. Was the original a 270 gr bullet? You could go to casting wheel weights with gas check if you are really keen. Just a thought.

I personally would not bother with black powder unless you are a real enthusiast. It is very messy to work with and very finnicky even in shotguns. The risk of corroding your beautiful rifle are very high.

If the left barrel is shooting to the right of the right barrel, it usually means that the velocity is too high for accurate regulation.

With doubles the key is that accuracy & regulation are entirely differnt. Regulation is to get both barrels shooting at same point of impact. Accuracy is to get them to shoot at same point of aim.

I had the rifle out again and used the 340gr HP lubricated cast lead bullets that were on hand. A couple of trial loads got it up to Avg 1809 fps and a velocity spread of 25 fps taken 18 ft in front to avoid the dacron passing over the screens.
It shot point of aim for the first time ever with the left and right barrel groups 2 1/2" apart. The load was 47.5gr AR2207 Fed 215 and 13.5 gr Dacron.
The left barrel grouping better than the right. Shots 5&6 opened up the groups and on inspection there was visable leading in both barrels. As these bullets were given to me by someone who had also been given them the lead hardness is anyones guess.
I want to persevere and find a safe nitro for black load to avoid any corrosion problems in the future with this very well cared for gun. It will not be used much once sorted but I like all the guns in the safe to be useable and to have shot at least one animal.
Now that some progress has been made I will wait for some 350gr soft jacketed bullets to arrive and try to find a mould for a PP lead bullet as well.
John

IT IS REGULATED.
I had a box of 350gr woodleigh .458 BPE bullets sent over from Aussie and used a pressure tested load from Graeme's book of 70grs AR2208 [varget]with cork wads. At 50yds R&L went into the same hole at POI. Velocity was as stated in his book but the gun wouldnt open, the cases came out with no effort when pushed with a cleaning rod.I then dropped the load to 65gr AR2208 for Avg 1888fps and 1" group @ 50yds at POI and no problems with extraction.
The load 65gr AR 2208
5 x cork wads cut from a floor tile
350gr Woodleigh .458 BPE
Primer Fed 215
Avg Velocity = 1888 fps
Best group 1" worst group 3" [4 shots]
For the first time in many years its ready to go hunting.

Great to hear the good news John. A sweet rifle like that has to be hunted with! Good luck.

There you go.

The Hornady will likely do the same for you if you can't get the woodleighs in the future.
I'd be careful with that wadding, those bores are very nice and a floor tile can contain anything including things that can harm your bores.
I've used dacron and wool felt. Both are easy to examine for impurities. Both are easily sourced on the net.

Thanks for the warning on the cork it was something that I considered when purchasing the tiles.The ones I got cost a bit more but look very clean I've pulled the cork apart and it just looks like cork. I guess there is some adhesive in there but its not apparent.As I do a lot of shooting at home [I have a Red deer farm and also run some sheep]
the left over Dacron tuffs may be an issue with stock eating any that get missed in the clean up so the cork was better.Felt was the first choice but none in town I did not look on the net when I got the cork.

Here are a couple of photos from John & his Paton!

Shot was taken at 40 yds the angle very much the same as photo. 350 gr woodleigh Weldcore took out the leg bone, 2 ribs, lungs and came to rest in the gut bag.the shoulder partly removed so I could inspect the wound channel.There was more damage than expected. Now that the old girl is back in work that wont be the last.

Outstanding John,

The wall hanger becomes a Deer Rifle once again.

Looking forward to the pics when you bag your big stag.

Mr Paton and son would have been proud to see that rifle used as intended more than a century after it left their shop!
Congratulations!

what a beauty.
Id go and kill elephants. It would give the gun some justice