Gentlemen, nobody here is telling anyone how to shoot a rifle that he paid the thousands of dollars to obtain.

However, there are rules that over a couple hundred years that are considered the proper way to use any firearm for the best outcome. One of those rules is how to hold a double rifle to make the best of the built-in balance, and to get the best of the built-in regulation of the barrels.

The reason there is no need for a Beaver tail forearm wood is because of the proper way to place the fore-hand on the rifle. The proper way to hold the fore end of a double rifle is to place the forward tip of the forearm wood in the palm of the fore-hand with the fingers and thumb wrapped around the steel barrels.

If held properly even with a B/T forearm wood that is still the way to hold the fore end of a double rifle. If a double rifle is fitted to you by a top maker this is where the fore-hand is placed. That combined with the length of pull, and the cheek weld is what gives a properly fitted double rifle the classic quickly mounting the rifle with the eyes closed, and when the eyes are opened the sights are lined up naturally. That quality with the body leaning slightly forward into the but stock is where the so-called instinctive feel comes from.

On the firing of several shots in a string that makes the barrels hot enough that the shooters hand can't stay on the barrels not good for the rifle over the long run, and is not needed even on the firing range.

Once the rifle barrels get that hot combined with the heat generated by the next shot starts to exacerbate copper fouling in the barrels, and over time will erode the throat of the most fired barrel as well. Eerosion doesn't happen much today since they no longer use Cordite powder, but over heating is still not a good practice.

On top of that, a properly regulated, by the barrel man at the factory, a double rifle is regulated with as little as eight shots all fired from cool barrels. Fired two a right and left, cooled down to room temp, then fire two more then cooled again, and so on till the four shots are fired from each barrel, all on the same target or each barrel on separated identical targets using the same aiming point on each target, Then the center of the barrels group is found in relation to the aiming point on the target.

Once done only the center of each barrel individual group and the aiming point on the target is measured in relation to each other. Perfect is the aiming point should be exactly half way between the centers of each barrels individual group centers. If this is the outcome the rifle regulation is finished, and the composite group is then measured for side to side and from top to bottom. and the sights are regulated (filed) to be dead on for the range the rifle is most likely to be used considering the chambering.

This doesn't mean the barrels are crossing at that range, only that that is the range or closer where the fit and regulation will compliment each other, and because of the proper regulation of the barrels the composite group will work at long range as well as up close with hold over or a flip-up sight.

So the reason for this long winded explanation is, when you are working up a load the shots need to be shot with the two and cooling the same way the barrel regulator did his work, then they will match on your target as well. For practice the best is to fire a one two tap on the target and re-load and fire another one two tap quickly on the target. There is no need to fire 10 rounds in a row without letting the barrels cool. or use a cooling fixture like the canned air used to clean dust off your computer. When you get where you can do this fast and consistently without making any mistakes, you will do fine if the need comes where 10 shots are actually needed in a string.


................................................................ ............

Sorry for the delay, just back from 2 weeks of spousal maintenance, Paris, Normandy (was there on the 6th), and Ireland.
I have a gun currently being made with a shorter splinter forarm. I have not yet seen it myself, so I can not tell you what I think until I have it in hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Sorry for the delay, just back from 2 weeks of spousal maintenance, Paris, Normandy (was there on the 6th), and Ireland.
I have a gun currently being made with a shorter splinter forarm. I have not yet seen it myself, so I can not tell you what I think until I have it in hand.

Hope you behaved and didn't mention gun or double even once!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I'm still on the fence. I like Todd's "compromise" Splinter, but the beavertail sure does a good job of keepingmy fingers away from those hot barrels. jorge

Apparently some have never got burned fingers from blazing away with 10 or 12 rounds with a splinter double. Seems aesthetics may be more important than reality.

Apparently some have never got burned fingers from blazing away with 10 or 12 rounds with a splinter double. Seems aesthetics may be more important than reality.[/QUOTE]


Ummm ... just curious, but in what circumstances would one be "blazing away with 10 or 12 rounds" with a double rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I'm still on the fence. I like Todd's "compromise" Splinter, but the beavertail sure does a good job of keepingmy fingers away from those hot barrels. jorge

Apparently some have never got burned fingers from blazing away with 10 or 12 rounds with a splinter double. Seems aesthetics may be more important than reality.

Will, how many times in your life have you blazed away 10 or 12 shots out of a double rifle on an elephant or buffalo?
.... .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ......

..........and he still got away, and you melted the solder in your rifle! IMO anyone who needs to shoot ten or twelve shots with a double rifle, needs to trade it in for a machinegun, or learn to shoot!.........

While the opinions on the thread are almost unanimous, the opinions on the poll are not a slam dunk. One in five appear to prefer the beavertail. I'm one of those.

It's NOT just a matter of heat on the barrels.

With me it's more a matter of sight picture if you're used to shotguns where your left hand is on the forearm and doesn't wrap around the barrels and get in the way.

I have two double rifles and both have the splinter, and that's the one and only feature I wish was different. I just find it awkward with holding the barrels instead of a forearm. And I have long arms which means holding it way on out there. I can do it OK, but it's not by choice. So I just fail to see what's cool about it.

..now where's that little emoticon with ducking behind a sofa...

Strikes me that in a poll where over 80% of those voting (and the universe of persons voting is not some small or insignificant number of people) support a particular market offering, the market has pretty decisively expressed their preference. Again, the original question was not whether beavertails should be outlawed, but rather what should be the "standard" offering on VC doubles. The small minority that prefer a beavertail would always be free to special order a beavertail forearm if that was what they fancied. I am no expert on market research, but customer polling that produces such a landslide view to me seems pretty persuasive.

. . . I would also be concerned with the fact that if I favored beavertail forearms, that would align me with Gnarly Bill (as an aside, I certainly hope that we are reaching the outer branches of Gnarly's family tree in the Classified section). Only thing worse might be if I started to seriously entertain emulating Shootaway's shooting style.

I also prefer the splinter forend. What I can't understand is why there is a debate about this.

Having a "standard" seems ridiculous. All three of the forends should be offered and the buyer should simply choose the one he likes.

It certainly doesn't seem like a good business decision to attempt to force fit customers into what the company decides they want. I can understand Chapuis or Sabatti needing to operate that way to meet a price point, but not a company that supposedly delivers a custom product.

VC does not have a standard, they'll build you whatever you want. Debate about what, that one is better over the other? it's pure aesthetics and nothing more.

I think a splinter is more than aesthetics, although aesthetically I think it is far superior to the other options. I think you get more control over the rifle being able to engage the barrels. I know that other, experienced double rifle shooters feel the same way, including MS.

I can concur with Will, shooting multiple shots like in the Vintagers double rifle championships 32 shots and on a hot day the barrels will give you second degree burns. I watched AR member SXS pour water down the barrels to cool them off on his Holland & Holland Royal 450/500.
When hunting I always carry a leather glove and have a spare also.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
VC does not have a standard, they'll build you whatever you want. Debate about what, that one is better over the other? it's pure aesthetics and nothing more.

The issue is clearly not whether or not they will build it. The issue I think is more related to whether or not VCs idea of a "splinter" fits the consumers' definition. I like VC and WILL own one one day, but I do think they are missing a bit of an opportunity by not offering a wholesale replication of the Brit style. What did Picasso say..."Good artists borrow, great artists steal!"

I think it is all about balance.Take a look at the forearm of a over and under shotgun and then a side by side.I feel that the more you hold a rifle the more you will lean towards naturally holding it with the least effort and most balance.I think over time,it has shown that there is not much wood really needed that much further away from the action and that is why many old bolt rifles and doubles have little wood there.When I first started to shoot a rifle offhand alone I would find myself almost entirely grasping the forearm the furthest away and then as the years went on I would hold the rifle closest to the action.

shootaway, for one thing a lot of those old rifles were built in the day when guys were shorter and their arms were shorter too. So they didn't need to hold the barrels as far out. I'm personally just not comfortable with that. Even with an autoloading shotgun that has the full length "beavertail" (if you call it that on those type of guns) I still inevitably find myself naturally holding the end of the forearm with my left hand. I can just shoot it better and control barrel swing better that way. It's the same I find with big game blue water fishing rigs. I have to constantly remind myself to not hold the rod too far forward with the left hand (with those it's unsafe to do that - you can break a rod that way under the strain of a really large fish - you're supposed to hold it close to the reel).

Anyway, for those who like the splinter, a question. Do you rest the barrels in the palm of your left hand or hold the barrels only with the fingers? I find if I hold it in my palm, that my fingers "naturally" wrap around the barrels, and then get in the way of the sight picture. How do you deal with that?

I also found on my splinter S/S shotguns that extensive barrel handling instead of forearm handling over time wears the bluing off the barrels in that spot. Much the same as the bluing gets worn off the part of the trigger guard that extends under the pistol grip.

I like the looks of the classic splinter forend but like this beavertail too:

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:


Anyway, for those who like the splinter, a question. Do you rest the barrels in the palm of your left hand or hold the barrels only with the fingers? I find if I hold it in my palm, that my fingers "naturally" wrap around the barrels, and then get in the way of the sight picture. How do you deal with that?

Wood in the palm of my hand with the fingers wrapped over the barrels. However, my fingers to not crossover and interfere with the sight picture. The forefinger tends to point forward, in the same manner one correctly holds a SxS shotgun.

I've owned a couple of rifles with a beavertail. My Chapuis 9.3x74R that I still own has the beavertail. The VC 577NE had one. Even with the beavertail, I still hold the rifle in the same manner, i.e. I wrap my fingers over the tops of the barrels. The beavertail is just extra wood that interferes with a proper grip.

If you think the splinter is all about aesthetics, and you're convinced holding the rifle only by the wood on a beavertail fore-arm is the correct technique of handling a double rifle, here's a little experiment for you. Take a 577NE with a beavertail fore-arm, and grip it with the left hand ONLY by the wood of the fore-arm, without a purchase on the barrels at all. No part of the hand or fingers touching the barrels, just the wood fore-arm. Then fire that bad boy off!! I guarantee the recovery time to fire the second barrel will be significantly slower than if you hold it correctly by wrapping the fingers over the top and controlling the recoil.

No, not purely aesthetics. The beavertail is a classic example of fixing something that wasn't broken!

quote:

Wood in the palm of my hand with the fingers wrapped over the barrels. However, my fingers to not crossover and interfere with the sight picture. The forefinger tends to point forward, in the same manner one correctly holds a SxS shotgun.

Well, I don't have a 577 to try that. And I have heard that part of the splinter deal is that, with real heavy kickers there's the chance of the gun and forearm parting ways, which I'm able to understand. But with my 450/400 I really doubt that's a risk. If it had a beavertail I doubt that anything bad would happen.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to see the real problem here. My arms and fingers are too long to conveniently grip it by the barrels...

From Fear No Death by Mark Sullivan:

"Another key component to shooting a double well has to do with where and how you grip the rifle. If you shoot right-handed your left hand should be holding the barrels; not gripping the forearm. The reason for this is simple. Holding the barrels lets you control where the muzzles are pointing; hence where your bullets strike. This is what you want to control. Your want to have as much control in where your bullets strike as humanly possible and the best way I have found to do this is to grip the barrels. If you are in control of the barrels--you are in control of the gun. Gripping the gun by the forearm diminishes your control and lessons your ability to move the barrels quickly. The forearm's only function is to join the barrels and receiver together as well as housing the extractor or ejectors whichever is present. Other than that, the forearm has no purpose or value other than cosmetics. Remember, to control the muzzles you control the barrels. To do this effectively, you must grip the barrels-- not the forearm."

And all the people said, Amen.

You did it now Mike! bringing Sullivan into the equation!

I just watched some Olympic skeet shooting on youtube and I noticed all the shooters where holding there double shotguns just in front of the action and far away from the barrels(just like I hold my rifle).From the post above I guess they were not in control of there muzzles.
Skeet shooting video

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

quote:

Wood in the palm of my hand with the fingers wrapped over the barrels. However, my fingers to not crossover and interfere with the sight picture. The forefinger tends to point forward, in the same manner one correctly holds a SxS shotgun.

Well, I don't have a 577 to try that. And I have heard that part of the splinter deal is that, with real heavy kickers there's the chance of the gun and forearm parting ways, which I'm able to understand. But with my 450/400 I really doubt that's a risk. If it had a beavertail I doubt that anything bad would happen.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to see the real problem here. My arms and fingers are too long to conveniently grip it by the barrels...

I understand that most don't have access to a 577NE. I used it as an extreme example inorder to show what the proper technique is. In a lesser recoiling rifle, you can get away with not doing it correctly.

On the issue of hand size, I too can easily grip over the barrels and make my fingers touch, thereby obscuring the sight picture. But that isn't proper either. As in the statement of how my forefinger tends to point forward toward the muzzles, it should be evident that the hand is slightly askew so that the tips of the fingers are out of the way of the sight plane. Think of the way you would grip a golf club. You don't grip it like a baseball bat. The hand is angled to a degree. I hold a double rifle in the same manner.

S-A-W, I realize that the way you shoot it sometimes is like shooting a shotgun, but guess what, a shotgun and a rifle are two different types of weapons. You know what else? An over-and-under is different than a side-by-side. Shocking huh. And someone once told me that low recoil skeet rounds are different than nitro express rounds. Have not checked that last one out myself, but it sounds right. You are a clown. Why did I even open your post and not just leave you on ignore? Sometimes I am my own worst enemy.

On the premise that a picture is worth a thousand words, here you go. Notice that this is my Chapuis WITH a beavertail. Doesn't matter, I still grip the barrels and the sights are clear. No finger intrusion into the line of the sights.




From this picture, using this technique to grip the fore-end, it should be obvious that a beavertail is simply a feature that has no real value. It's just extra wood to get in the way.

Todd, I really appreciate your going to that trouble to take pics and do all the explaining. That's excellent information. But to be honest the view shown there would still be too much thumb and fingers on top for me to feel good about the sight pic.

What I do is hold the barrel just touching the left part of the palm with the thumb and roughly two and a half fingers on the sides but no higher and not curled over even that much. Then I can see down the barrel. I can get away with that because of the little skinny barreled 30-30's no recoil and low recoil of the 450/400. The Searcy's weight pretty much takes the recoil anyway. In other words I'm just used to a totally unobstructed barrel view.

That's what you get from five decades of shotgun and bolt gun.

So, IF I was ordering a new DB I'm afraid I'd still go ahead and ask them to stick a piece of wood on it for me to hang unto - "just because".

But don't think the helpful advice is not appreciated. It is.

Cheers.

As mentioned V-C will try and make what ever the customer wants. Below are some pictures of a gun that is in process and still has a long way to go but you can see the shape and length of the forarm.

Very nice Ken. I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Very nice Ken. I like it.

Ya, that's a winner! I would move the rear sight back to the middle of the forearm, but then I am a picky bastard.

I do not agree with making whatever the customer wants but making what the experienced shooter and gun-maker wants.

.....................................................................

Many customers or probably most are stupid.The gun maker on the other hand needs to be an experienced shooter to build a fine rifle.He should make the rifle the way he thinks it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Many customers or probably most are stupid.

Do you include yourself in that category?

If I were to guess as to what type of forearm would be best it would be a flat one with a low profile that is level with the bottom of the action.

Ken, now that is looking great!!! I like it! I like it!!

Ken,

That new forearm design is what we've been looking for. That should boost your sales big time. Best of luck with it; it looks great.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
I can concur with Will, shooting multiple shots like in the Vintagers double rifle championships 32 shots and on a hot day the barrels will give you second degree burns. I watched AR member SXS pour water down the barrels to cool them off on his Holland & Holland Royal 450/500.
When hunting I always carry a leather glove and have a spare also.

Mike

Mike, there is no law that says anyone has to conform to tradition or even to common sense. The man who spends his hard earned money to buy a well made double rifle may shoot it as he pleases and have it appointed as he pleases.

However, IOM (which means nothing to anyone but me) anyone who fires even ten shots through a double rifle, much less 32 shots, without cooling the barrels, unless it is a matter of life and death, is simply not thinking.

In the case of life or death the damage that may be done to the rifle is secondary. When in competition there are very few exercises that require more than four or six shots from a double rifle in a single run. So the rifle cools while the shooters waits for their next run. The big bore club in OZ have a rack cooler that can cool several doubles at a time. For personal cooling, a simple canned air used to dust your computer sprayed down the open barrels cools the barrels. I don't think water is a good idea in an H&H Royal.

I have serious doubt that anyone on this website has ever had to fire 10 or 12 shots from a double on an elephant. Maybe 5 or 6 on a "running and gunning" on a buffalo once in a life time. In my experience, the only place I’ve seen people turning their double rifle into a soldering iron is on a local firing range, never in the field.

I guess what this long winded post could have been a lot shorter by simply saying the B/T forearm wood is not needed on a double rifle to avoid burning your fingers!
......................................................................................Wait till I dig my fox hole!

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:


Ya, that's a winner! I would move the rear sight back to the middle of the forearm, but then I am a picky bastard.

Only good if you have good eyes

Totally agree with Adam. As I get older, I want that rear sight farther away.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
As I get older, I want that rear sight farther away.

Buncha old fogeys around here!

True indeed