I guess Krieghoff has read the boards here. In 2008 Krieghoff will offer 450/400 in their Classic Big Five double rifles. Same price as their other Big Five calibers. Yes, CharlesPrince IS Eurogun Imports. Thanks

Hopefully they will be slim and trim instead of the typical "10-pounders."

I see these old 450/400's at 11 lbs. and up. Seems like obesity run amuck.

10 pounds makes a nice 450/400 3 inch!

9lbs makes a nicer 450/400!

Couldn't resist.

JPK

And 9.5lbs is just right.

Touche'

NE450#2 and I handled the Kreighoff 450/400 3 inch Thursday evening as they were chasing folks out of the hall. It is a nicely made rifle. It has the thumb operated cocking piece.

I really do like the Heym 450/400 3 inch. 26" barrels make all the difference in looks for me.

I vote for a weight of under 10

pounds but not down near 9.

Mine, at 10 pounds 6 oz's is

between 7 & 14 oz's over weigh!

It must be the 28" barrels...

Jack,
Bless your heart! Just send that poor overweight double to me! I wouldn't want you to have to hunt with a fat rifle you would hate to be seen with!

Rusty: I am a new member on this forum. I am thinking of going to Reno,NY for the SCI Convention. Are anu of the members of DRSS planning to go that you know of? Thanks for your help in getting me started here when I first joined in.
Bob Studen..RoJoVin
Long Island NY
Merkel 2020 Expr. 8X57jrs
Heym M55 9,3X74R
NRA Lifer
SCI
DRSS

I am sure there are members gong to Reno. I'm just not sure who? It will be the place to see double rifles. A bunch of dealers will be there, including Heym with their new 450/400 3 inch. Keighoff as one as well.

There should be plenty of eye candy.

If you have time to register and get your credentials before the show, I understand this helps a great deal.

Hope you have a great trip!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Jack,
Bless your heart! Just send that poor overweight double to me!
I wouldn't want you to have to hunt with a fat rifle you would
hate to be seen with!

Sorry to spoil the party but I was told the 450-400 N.E. Kreighoff was 10 lbs and they will only come in 24 inch barrels not 26 inch. I have to admit it felt good, it was balanced a lot better than their 470. Also the OD on the barrels of the 470 and the 450-400 looked to be the same. I was also told that the 470 was heavier but only by 6-8 oz. I don't know how they kept it lighter unless they had some added weight somewhere else on the rifle.

It felt like a good 10 lbs. anyway. They also said it was regulated with the anemic Hornady factory cartridges (2050 fps).

But the 470 Krieghoff I have is pretty much immune to regulation issues and one could probably get away with higher velocities.

Makes you wonder how they regulated the Heym guns with Hornady as shown at DSC as I was told they were. Would this matter? hornady does not come up on the State Department Regristry for imports but maybe an individual or a company shipped it.I doubt it though
The time doesnt match what everyone saying at heym or hornady or what ive seen on the net. it wont matter though on the first rifles already in country.

Rusty what did you hear on the Heym's

I seriously doubt anyone from Heym told people that they were selling rifles regulated with Hornady ammunition. Heym's consistent message has been that they will use any ammo you want to regulate their rifles. When I talked to them about this late last year, I was told if one wanted a rifle regulated with Hornady ammunition, you would have to wait into 2008 pending Hornady's release of the product.

Jim - you're thinking of the 9.3x74.

Hornady is the only ammunition that has been used to regulate the HEYM 450/400s.

Jim and New Guy meant no offense I stand corrected I guess it takes me awhile to process all the info I heard at the DSC show from the past Heym dealers Cabellas, NECG, Eurogun and then at HeymUSA and Hornady. With you being the US Importer/dealer you would be in the know.
Alot different info out there. Seeing as you guys are the professionals I didnt mean to take any "stabs" at any Heym as that would mean I am a foolish owner.

.500pro,
What New_guy says.

Will,
2050 FPS would make it the equivilant of a 60 Cord regulated British Double? It seems that round has always managed to get things done.

Its funny, everyone use to complain about the .458 WM not being enough because it couldn't get to 2,100 FPS (it actually can with proper handloading). I would sure rather have a 500 grain .458 bullet hitting an angry ele/buffalo at 2,050 fps than a 400 grain .411 bullet at the same speed.

How is it that everyone sings praises for the 450/400 at 2,050 (if even that) but degrades the .458 WM for not getting to the magic number of 2,100 FPS.

Interesting.

Tim

Shumba
The problem with the 458 was that the ball powder solidified and velocities were around 1400 to 1600fps.

I can assure you that on elephants or buff a 480 gr 458 at 2050 to 2100fps, or a 450 .458 at 2200fps, or a 400 gr .408 at 2050 to 2200fps will do all that is desired.

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
Its funny, everyone use to complain about the .458 WM not being enough because it couldn't get to 2,100 FPS (it actually can with proper handloading). I would sure rather have a 500 grain .458 bullet hitting an angry ele/buffalo at 2,050 fps than a 400 grain .411 bullet at the same speed.

How is it that everyone sings praises for the 450/400 at 2,050 (if even that) but degrades the .458 WM for not getting to the magic number of 2,100 FPS.

Interesting.

Tim

What about "two" 400grn .410 bullets at 2100fps each compared to "one" 500grn 458bullet at 2100fps?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
Its funny, everyone use to complain about the .458 WM not being enough because it couldn't get to 2,100 FPS (it actually can with proper handloading). I would sure rather have a 500 grain .458 bullet hitting an angry ele/buffalo at 2,050 fps than a 400 grain .411 bullet at the same speed.

How is it that everyone sings praises for the 450/400 at 2,050 (if even that) but degrades the .458 WM for not getting to the magic number of 2,100 FPS.

Interesting.

Tim

What about "two" 400grn .410 bullets at 2100fps each compared to "one" 500grn 458bullet at 2100fps?

Ozhunter, I have you beat there. The first time I took my Merkel 470 NE to the range, I doubled it and sent two 500 grain .474 bullets downrage at 2,150 fps. Didn't really hurt, but sure gave me a big surprise

Don't forget the 450/400 velocity {2150 - 2175} was done in

olde England long ago with 28 inch barrels. Since many guys are

shooting 26 inch and 24 inch barrels a loss of 50 - 100 fps is to

be expected based on original loads. My bbls are 28. If I shoot the

Hornady ammo I might see 2125 to 2200 at the muzzle. No telling

until the experiment is done.

Many Jeffery 400's were proofed for the 55 gr Cordite Tropical load.

Velocity in the 24" barrels of these doubles was more likley in the 1925 to 1975fps range.

I would recommend that ANYONE that is thinking about getting a 450/400 double rifle, OR has doubts about its performance, get the following book:

"The RIFLE, Its Development For Big Game Hunting"
by S.R. Truesdell

Published by Safari Press.

Also read John Taylors book.

I have never seen ANYTHING in print, negative, about the performance of the 450/400 doubles, written by people who used them, back in the day.

In fact everything I have read, written by people of the time, using the 450/400's has been nothing but praise.

With all due respect to John Taylor, my adopted father, the one thing he did state that I agree with is that 5000 ft-lbs is needed for the worst case situations, those offered up by angry buff, ele, or whatever.

At 2000 fps, a 450/400 falls way short of that (~3550 ft-lbs). I concede that the 450/400 may have some magical powers that allows the slaying of any beast under any circumstances, but I can't pretend that it is something it is not.

Just reading Taylor last night, and he did say that he would follow any game into any type of bush (rather any sort of bush that he would enter with larger weapons) with a 450/400 and feel just as comfortable with it as any other rifle. He also said he would feel more comfy in the thick stuff with a 450/400 than a 375 H&H, but that is neither here nor there.

That said, I do think that Will has a good point.