Based on some previous "discussions" about O/U DRs, I'm almost afraid to post this topic.

I'd really like to own a double rifle, but am priced out of the market for a .470 NE or most other SxS doubles, except for the Sabattis, a questionable choice.

After reading various observations here about the balance between caliber and price, it appears the 450/400 is a good compromise, but even with that choice, a SxS is pretty expensive.

I've just seen two O/U 450/400s on the auction sites with buy-now prices between $5500-$5800.

Many on this forum have said an O/U is not a bad choice, IF anything other that DG is on the menu.

That doesn't help me, as the only reason I'd invest in a double is to hunt Cape buffalo. Oh, I'd use it for plains game or North American game, but if those were all I'd be hunting, I already have rifles in several workable calibers and wouldn't waste $$ on a double.

So, is the O/U absolutely a no-go for DG? The only species I can afford is Cape buff, and while I suppose having to deal with an unexpected lion or elephant charge is theoretically possible, I'd think either chance is pretty remote.

BTW, just to show how out of touch with reality I am, my son killed his Cape buffalo with my .458 Win Mag--it's a Steyr Model S, which is (gasp!) a push-feed AND has a detachable rotary magazine--absolutely unacceptable for DG! The fact that it shoots 500 gr Woodleighs into a tight cloverleaf at 50 yards and has never had a feeding problem is of no consequence, obviously.

There should be nothing wrong with a 450/400 O&U for buffalo. I know one other Alaskan Brown Bear guide, besides myself, who carry a Zoli 450/400 O&U and the largest Brown Bears are close to a Cape buffalo in size. When I bought my Zoli there were two Tanzania PH's who also bought them and the late Don Heath ( Ganyana) considered the 450/400 one of the best calipers for buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitro Express:
So, is the O/U absolutely a no-go for DG?

It's a go, it's a GO! A great DG rifle.

Colonel - I do not think you are out of touch. Yes, the double rifle purists will gasp at the thought of an O/U double rifle, but in reality, it is the caliber, the quality of the rifle, and how well you shoot it that matters when hunting dangerous game. I have double rifles ranging from .375 flanged to .500NE. My .375 is a Verney-Carron O/U. It is very well made, well regulated, and I shoot it pretty well to boot. I see no downside to the O/U double rifle, and my .375 flanged cost a few thousand dollars less than a comparable V-C SxS.
A 450/400 is plenty of gun for Cape Buffalo. They are also relatively low recoil compared to larger double rifle calibers, and I find this round a delight to shoot. I have taken a buffalo and a tuskless elephant with my Searcy 450/400 - neither animal complained about the caliber of bullet that killed them cleanly.

If I was going to hunt a lot of elephants, I might opt for my .470NE or .500NE, but if you are only going to shoot one or two, I think you will be fine with a 450/400. For that matter, many elephants are taken with a.375 H&H. It is the shot placement that matters most.

If I was in your position, I would look hard at a well made 450/400 O/U before I looked at a cheaper SxS. I have handled a few V-C O/U rifles in this caliber, and I was very impressed with them.

Rear Admiral, U.S. Navy, retired
SCI Life Member

Verney-Carron make very nice doubles, both SxS and O&U and the Zoli is another durable, accurate and reliable O&U with the nice ability to drop the entire trigger plate action for cleaning and inspection.



The "drop lock" feature, plus the highly rust resistant steel and coatings of the Zoli make it the most durable double for Alaskan conditions.

Verney-Carron and Zoli are the two makes of O/U doubles I'm seeing on Gunbroker.

Beretta also makes o/u double rifles although the caliber might be hard to find/ not available.

There have been a few rifle makers who have built O/U rifles that are equal to or better in quality and accuracy than sxs. The first such gun company that comes to mind is Boss who only made a handful of DR's on their O/U, and these rifles generally cost more than their sxs counterparts from Holland, Purdey,
Westley Richards and so on. The strength of the Boss action plus it's innovative design at the time (taking the hinge pins out of service when the action is closed) made it a very desirable DR at the time as well as now.

Now you can purchase a sxs DR from Holland and Purdey which takes the hinge pin out of service when the action is closed. Of course, this innovation of design is a matter for another discussion--I am building one of these for my personal DR sxs as I write this

Hartmann & Weiss likely make the finest guns and rifles in the world currently, now that their former Purdey trained employee/associate has retired from his shop in the UK,; and of course the price of these firearms are marked accordingly. If you will visit the Westley Richards website (theexplora.com) and scroll down 6 or so photos you can view on of Hartmann & Weiss' O/U rifle masterpieces built on the Boss action with added bolsters to last several lifetimes shooting the belted version of Holland's famous .375 Magnum.

Just as with sxs DR's you need investigate the accuracy of a O/U DR before you buy it. It is evident in the used rifle market place that there are O/U DR's floating around that were likely never regulated at manufacturing. However, that is not difficult to remedy.

There are probably more mainstream mfgrs with o/u rifles available than there are sxs's. Chapuis, VC, Sabatti, Zoli, Fabarm,FAIR,Merkel, maybe CZ/Brno are but a few of them. How many of them chamber the 450-400 is another thing. A number of them only go to 9.3x74R. A few chamber 375H&H as I remember from what I have noticed. But, they are out there.

I believe I know the other bear guide .458 speaks of. It's a fine O/U and will serve him will in the game fields of Alaska. Some of the most expensive vintage English guns and rifles are the over and unders--probably due to rarity as well as quality. I see nothing negative of an over under rifle or shotgun. However, personally, as long as my eyes are side by side I will continue to own and shoot s/s doubles. If God had meant us to shoot over unders, our eyes would be O/U also.
Just joshin' with ya all.
Cal

Being an FN-Browning afficionado, my smoothbore and rifled doubles are all O/U, with same stock dimensions (cast off, pitch, etc.)..


FN-Browning B25 "Special Chasse", cal 12


FN-Browning B525, "Prestige", cal 12 mag, vari-choke (proofed for steel shot)


FN-Browning CCS25, grade B5 (signed J Baerten), 9,3x74R

I have two O/U DR's,compared to my SxS DR's,they just feel better to the shoulder,I get it when people say,we have two eyes side by side & god wants your barrels side by side lol,maybe you guys should be seeing one inch apart at 50 yrds ha ha imagine that

quote:

Originally posted by Nitro Express:
Based on some previous "discussions" about O/U DRs, I'm almost afraid to post this topic.


So, is the O/U absolutely a no-go for DG? The only species I can afford is Cape buff, and while I suppose having to deal with an unexpected lion or elephant charge is theoretically possible, I'd think either chance is pretty remote.

BTW, just to show how out of touch with reality I am, my son killed his Cape buffalo with my .458 Win Mag--it's a Steyr Model S, which is (gasp!) a push-feed AND has a detachable rotary magazine--absolutely unacceptable for DG! The fact that it shoots 500 gr Woodleighs into a tight cloverleaf at 50 yards and has never had a feeding problem is of no consequence, obviously.

Nitro Express, There is no real reason a quality O/U double rifle chambered for 450-400NE cannot be used to hunt Cape Buffalo. The 450-400NE cartridge is a fine choice for an all-around double rifle in either configuration, O/U or S/S as long as you practice getting on target and work on getting the fastest re-load for shots 3 & 4 if 1&2 doesn't get the job done!

The reason, more than anything else, is the O/U is simply not a classic configuration for a double rifle. Most are simply not drawn to the O/U double rifles and that is the reason you see very few O/U doubles in chamberings larger than 9.3X74R. So, I say if that is what you want, and that is what you can afford then an O/U double chambered for the 450-400NE is what you should buy!

I would, personally, rather have a O/U 450-400NE double rifle than a PUSH feed rifle of any kind for taking on Buffalo, but that is just me!

Let the nay sayers buy what they want, and just take your O/U 450-400NE on a good Cape Buffalo safari!

...................................................................

The main reason the SxS became the "classic" form for the double rifle is because the English thought it "proper" . It used to be that way for shotguns as well until unbiased folks started using the O&U and discovered it worked at least every bit as well. Better if scores and popularity are a consideration.

When I ordered my 450/400 Zoli at the SCI convention there were to Tanzanian PH's who looked at them and also ordered rifles to use as their backup rifles.

Honestly you could summarize the entire argument between O/U and S/S doubles in the following statement:

Will that be boxers or briefs sir?

There are very few topics which can be categorized so entirely as personal choice as this one. If you prefer a O/U get one and take it to the field. If a S/S floats your boat, get one and take it to the field. I think the relevant part of this discussion is do you intend to take it to the field?

I listened to the argument that the SxS was better because our eyes were SxS but never could figure out which barrel to sight down

So I tried the O&U and found it a lot easier to hit with

quote:

If God had meant us to shoot over unders, our eyes would be O/U also

then you'd be like biebs
seriously i own both types and i find the o/u to more accurate than the sxs yes they have to be opened up further for loading , i've never see a problem with that(and yes i have been charged by eles etc b4)

Double barrel shotguns were originally made side by side because that was the only configuratino which would work with the flintlocks which were then in use. When the change was made to percussion locks, the configuration stayed the same, as it did when the change was made to exposed hammer cartridge guns. Hammerless guns followed what had now become traditional.

Over and under guns came to the fore on the continent where such tradition was not as rigid. The Germans experimented with drillings, combination guns, and over and under shotguns and rifles and shotguns. The over and under shotgun came to dominate the live bird and clay pigeon sports, and shooters trained with O/U shotguns naturally gravitated toward O/U combination guns and double rifle. I was one of those who did.

My first double rifle was a Krieghoff "Teck", a boxlock gun available as a combination gun, a double shotgun and a double rifle. My Teck has three sets of barrels: double rifle in caliber .458 Winchester Magnum, double rifle in caliber .375 H&H Magnum and shot barrels in 20 gauge 3" magnum. It has accompanied me on all my African hunts, and has accounted for four of the Big Five, the fifth being rhino. For a former international skeet shooter, the O/U configuration was completely natural for me, and the rifle and shotgun performed flawlessly.

Here are some representative photographs:

And for those cross-eyed folks who can't make up their mind on which is better Franzoi makes these

450-400 is in my opinion and many other hunters- the perfect Buff DR cartridge.

In fact, if you aren't planning on several Ele's in the future--
it is truly just about the perfect client DR cartridge-

I have owned and hunted with O/U DR's as well-
though I prefer SxS's -
the mechanical disadvantage of the O/U is the large gape angle to open the action , which is generally just a tad slower in the reloading phase.

If the U/O seems out of place in Africa, may I suggest the opposite would be true in America, where, at a glance, the unbelievers may think it is a lever-action.

I would feel a peep or scope sight less out of place on it, too, and if one barrel shoots higher than the other, you could remember it for long shots, another reason to opt for double triggers if possible.

In case it hasn't been mentioned in this thread, the .450/.400 was Elmer Keith's favorite rifle for big bears.

"You should shoot a side by side because your eyes are side by side" has been around for a long time, but you know it just doesn't stack up.

A lot of guys that you see shooting large bore doubles actually close one eye when they're aiming, and then shut both eyes when they pull the trigger!

No idea which way the barrels should be for those fellas!

I am sure I have seen the occasional Krieghoff SXS double in 450/400 for under $7k.

I think one was on offer just a few months ago on AR Bay classified

Look at this

http://forums.accuratereloadin...711063912#3711063912

I think the SXS hold their value better.

Another thought - contact Sam Rose who used to post on AR. PM me your email if you need his contact. He lives in North Carolina & has several doubles that he may want to sell.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitro Express:
Based on some previous "discussions" about O/U DRs, I'm almost afraid to post this topic.
.....................................
So, is the O/U absolutely a no-go for DG?

You'll find that a great deal of negative posts concerning O/U double rifles come from people who have very little or no experience with this type of rifle.

There are guys who have used O/U DR's for hunting DG, and have found that they work fine.
subsailor74, xausa, and 458Win's posts in this (and other) threads are a good example.

Any double rifle, SxS or O/U needs to be totally reliable, well regulated, and must fit the shooter. The shooter of course must learn how to use the rifle efficiently.

A well set up, reliable O/U DR, can work just as well as a SXS. This includes DG.

The 450-400NE has proven itself over many years to be a wonderful all round cartridge, including it's use on dangerous game.

Here is another nice & affordable one

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100585693

Although still in good shape, at 67 years old I realize I have a limited time to work as the primary guide for brown bear hunters. We are just getting geared up for our spring brown bear season next month and I was pawing through the gun safe to see what I want to carry.
Although the Zoli 450/400 double is a great bear rifle, I decided to carry either my 458 or 9.3x62 and offer my Zoli for sale. It comes with a 2 1/2x Leupold, in a Negrini case and 13 boxes of factory Hornady ammo (current price $140/bx) both soft and solids.
I figure $6500 should be a fair price if anyone else is interested in a affordable, reliable double.

And one of my guides will be working in Australia this summer so it should be no trouble getting it down there.

Rifle plus scope, mounts, case and heaps of factory ammo, sounds like pretty good value to me.
Pity the Oz dollar sucks at the moment. US$6,500 equals OZ$8,500 at present.

There is a Merkel 470 SXS on AR Classified for $6.8k