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The above were exchanges on the private 4K ranch hunt forum, so we can discuss this here and leave the private 4K ranch PM thread clean for business!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | ||
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Thanks, Mac. Very interesting. They are afterall melting solder and driving different wedges between the muzzles to regulate ... As I said before, this is about angels dancing on pinheads. How many can do a square dance there? As long as they don't DIVERGE just off the muzzles and do CONVERGE somewhere between 50 yards and infinity:  BTW, who is the moderator of this forum? Is that you MacD37? | |||
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You are correct, THEY are melting solder, and driveing wedges, but the web-site jocky who answered this question is not the one doing it, and what he wrote is in dirrect opposition to what is shown on the film, of the actual regulator doing "HIS" job! This is like asking a LOTUS salesman, how you go about properly setting the valves on a $190K LUTUS! Though he can relate the brosure to you in a message, he has absolutely no idea whether the printing on the paper is true or false, or at least not misleading! I think the film of the regulator, regulateing the rifle, is much more telling, than the message Jim got on the internet! You, however may draw any conclusion you choose, but I simply would rather go by my own physicaly regulating barrels experience, and the actual film,of the actual regulator, than the fellow who wrote that message. Looks like good POWDER for YOUR arguement, I must admit, but my experience says it is not "flamable", and is a dud! !  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I don't know who it is, but it isn't me! By the way I sent you a PM with a request! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I believe Mr. Murphy's reply addresses two issues: First and foremost, that H&H does not use a 50 yard target as its standard for regulation. Second, I think that his discussion of convergence is meant to address what H&H represents to its customers - that they regulate a rifle at a certain distance, and that the customer can fully expect his rifle, using the same load, primer, brass and bullet, to consistently shoot to that standard. With respect to other distances, H&H cannot represent that the rifle will regulate the same way. Can it? Yes. Will it? They cannot say. Those of us that handload have experienced differences in POI with seemingly insignificant changes in components. Changing brass CAN have an effect. Some brass is thicker than others. Changing powders definately has an effect, and changing lots from the same powder CAN have an effect. Changing primers CAN have an effect. Typically, the Federal primers burn a bit hotter and faster than CCI, etc. Changing bullets almost always has an effect, even in the same weight. I think in the last thread folks were talking at cross purposes and were not disagreeing with one another. Would I take a rifle that shot both barrels to the same POI at 50 yards at published velocities? Yes, because with a tweak on the load here or there, you could get that rifle to shoot just how you wanted it to shoot. Back off on the powder charge, switch to a slower powder, etc. SCI Life Member DSC Life Member | |||
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Make that the last TWO threads that I started to yank the chains of the "parallel-to-infinity" crowd. I am glad to see that Jim and Mac got it and get it, and I still mean every word of it! Yes, the "email clerk" should have talked to a regulator before he answered so hastily. He should not have been so hasty with the "Parallel To Infinity Myth." That is like putting the owner of an H&H Royal, one who doesn't reload his own ammo, in a round room and telling him to go sit in the corner! | |||
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Folks, IMO, this is one of the most insightful posts on this subject I have read to date! It explains that the regulator puts his stamp of approval, on the barrels, once the groups are no wider than the centers of the bores of both barrels apart, and both at the same elevation at the range he is working with the barrels. This is the point, that I maintain, where the barrels are regulated properly, and that is what the film that started this shows. Jim is correct in his explanation of the one hole, being OK, simply when they are that close, a simple loading change can make the rifle shoot properly! Shooting one hole is not proper, but is easily made proper by adjustig the load. This also is what I've been saying all along, and also what the film shows. I think the word "convergence" is what is misleading in this case. All that means is the two barrels shooting close enough to form a proper composit group at what ever range he is working. The phrase "REGULATED AT 50YDS'in the sales description, only has to do with the standing rear sight being cut to be dead on at 50yds, so anything from muzzle to 50 yds the hold for hunting is the same. This is only information for the new owner's use on something about to bite him. This doesn't mean the rifle will not shoot to the dawn range sights. Certainly, if each barrel is shooting a MOA of 1" at 50 yds, and still forming a composite group, it will, naturally form a MOA of 2" at 100 yds, but still form a composite group, and every time the distance doubles, so will the groups from each barrel, but if properly regulated at 50 yds, it will be properly regulated at 200 yds, the composite group will simply be larger, but still forming the composite group! All you see on the target is a larger group, but if you measure that group, and find it's center. left to right, you will find the front sight's aiming point at that range corosponds with the center of that composite group, regardless of the distance, out to the point where the bullets loose so much velocity, that they simply start to tumble, then all bets are off! Certainly, the loading must be kept as close to the same for the rifle to shoot well, but that applies to close range, as well as long range. That has nothing to do with the regulator's work, that is on the head of the guy loading the ammo, and applying pressure on the triggers. I think, all this says exactly the same thing RIP has been saying, and in different words, what I have been saying all along. There is no disagreement here between RIP, and I, as both are saying the same thing. He's hung up on the two words convergence, and infinity, and both words mean different things to me than they do to him. INFINITY in regards to firearms is only the distance that a given load is viable,and the composite group falls apart, not to outer space! And the meaning of convergence to the regulator, means pulling the barrels together, till the barrels shoot S/S on his target no wider than the distance between the bore centers, and at the same elevation, with his known load. To the handloader working up a load from a slow (read low pressre starting load), and working higher speed till the barrels shoot (CONVERGE) to a side by side group at the regulating distance of the rear sight cutting, with an experimental load. That is the point where he stops and goes hunting!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Even though I sppreciate the discussions of covergence versus parallel regulations, I just wonder who in the hell van shoot that well that it makes any practical difference?  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, when you pay the kind of money for a rifle like an H&H, you expect the perfection,they advertize, in every detail of that rifle. Never mind that the joker who has the money to spend on it depends on others to shine his shoes,because he is either too lazy, or simply can't do as good a job, the fact is the quality is there, whether he can use it or not! The fact that a fine double rifle is regulated properly, has nothing to do with a lazy, or enept owner. "It'll do" is not the moto of most double rifle owners, and certainly not most top name makers! Their percision, negates some of the owner's deficiencies, or negative attitude! You know as well as I do, even a Wal-Mart special will shoot better than most hunters can! If your rifle is regulated properly, and your loads match that regulation, the screw-ups are your's!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles H&H letter to Jim Manion on regulateing
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