1. Is the 450/400 3 1/4" the same cartridge as the NE450 No.2?
2. Is the 450/400 3" the same cartridge as the 400 Jeffery as the 450/400 Jeffrey Nitro?
3. Which round is the one offered in B.Searcy doubles? Everyone just says '450/400', and the website doesn't delineate, although I have seen in forums guys have Searcys in 450/400 3", so what about the 3 1/4"? He chambers for either in both the PH AND Classic models?
4. Where does the 450 Rigby fall into all this? Is it the same as any of the ones mentioned above? Thanks.

Eagle

The 450/400 31/4 is not the same as the .450 31/4 but uses the same parent case.

The 450/400 3" was adopted by Jeffery and offered by that firm, the 3 1/4 usually made by Eley and later by Kynoch and offered to the rest of the trade was based on a similar case but at 3 1/4" in length.

If I am correct and others will no doubt confirm, the 3 inch case had a thicker rim than did the 3 1/4 case.

The .450 3 1/4" was introduced by Jeffery in around 1898 and with a nickel 480 grain jacketed bullet rendered the then black powder "bore rifles" obsolete. The latter uses a 480 grain . 458" bulllet

The .450 Rigby is infact a later introduction in the late 1980' and is based upon the .416 rigby rimless case, again for a 480 grain bullet in .458 bore but designed for use in magazine rifles.

I cannot help with Searcy rifles as I am in the U.K, others will assist better in this intent.

Hope this helps

The .450/.400 Nitro Expresses are both bottlenecked .41 caliber cartridges based on the .450 case.

The .450/.400 3" Nitro Express (aka .400 Jeffery; .450/.400 Jeffery) is based on a thick rimmed .450 case. Standard ballistics are a 400 grain jacketed bullet at 2125 fps in a 30" pressure barrel for 16 tons bolt thrust.

The .450/.400 3 1/4" Nitro Express is based on a thin rim .450 case. Standard ballistics are a 400 grain jacketed bullet at 2150 fps in a 26" pressure barrel for 16.5 tons bolt thrust.

Originally, the 3 1/4" used a .408" bullet and the 3" used a .411".

The only Searcy .450/.400's I've seen have been 3", but I imagine that he would build a 3 1/4" if you asked.

The .450 No. 2 Nitro Express uses a unique 3 1/2" bottleneck case and a 480 grain .458" bullet. Standard ballistics are the 480 grain at 2175 fps in a 28" pressure barrel for 13 tons bolt thrust.

The .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, sometimes called the .450 Rigby, uses a straight, thin rimmed .450 case with a 480 grain .458" bullet. Standard ballistics are the 480 grain at 2150 fps in a 28" pressure barrel for 17 tons bolt thrust.
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Butch's new "Classic" which I saw in Dallas, is a beautiful rifle. It is offered in 450/400 3 inch. The bores are .411

I believe the 450 NE No2 case is not unique and that it is shared with the post 45 cal ban 475 NE No2.

Correct?

JPK

JPK:

No, the .450 No. 2 and the .475 No. 2 are not the same case. Diameters of the case bodies are different. The .450 No. 2 case has a base diameter of .565" - it's actually a smaller diameter case than the .500 and it's offspring like the .500/.450 and .470. The .475 No. 2 case looks similar but has a base diameter of .580".
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The .450" 3 1/4" was infact introduced by rigby and not be jeffery in 1898 as I earlier mistakely posted, should read what I write!

Jeffery did follow suit with their own .450 dubbed the .450 No2 which used a 3.5" case using variously 75 or 80 grains of cordite and 480 grain bullet, this case ultimately became the .475 No 2 following the ban on .45 bore by the British in the sudan campaign.

apart from being 3.5 inches in length, the case also utilised a thick rim, the intention being to depart from the thinner rims used on the other N.E cases that had been developed from the lower pressure black powder rounds, and which on some early production cases used with high pressures had failed on ejection causing the rim to shear.

Seems Mr. Searcy can make rifles in this calibre (450-400), which for the avoidance of doubt is indeed a great round, even today!

Sorry for the earlier confusion

Jonathan:

The .475 No. 2 is National Arms & Ammunition's old .500/.450 3 1/2" case necked up, not the .450 No. 2. The .450 No. 2 and .475 No. 2 are completely different cases.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express,

Where do you get your cartridge case dimension figures?

The difference you note is interesting since I have read many times, or maybe read more into what was written than I should have, that the 475 N2 was a direct development of the 450 No2.

For example, I took a look at COTW, which has its errors, and it implies the direct develpoment.

Thanks,

JPK

Mostly factory drawings, specs from reloading manuals, etc. For British cartridges COTW has always been a minefield of errors. I quit using it years ago. Fleming's British Sporting Rifle Cartridges is pretty good.

Measure a round of the old Kynoch ammo for each. You'll see the difference.

400 N.E

Do you know if the case used for the .475 No2 "Eley" as it ultimately became known and that of the .475 no2 Jeffery were from the same parent case?

I know a different bullet diameter of about .005" and differnet weight 500 -v 480 grains was used by Jeffery but I always believed (probably from COTW) that for the case of the jeffery, or rather Kynoch on behalf of Jeffery, simply utilised the .450 No2, I have examples of both but have never measured them.

Thanks for the info

Jonathan:

Yes. Kynoch's drawings show an identical case for both .475 No. 2s, .580" base diameter, with only bullet weight and diameter differing - .483 480 grain vs .489 500 grain. I have little doubt that the .475s were developed from the .450 No. 2 concept, but Eley probably decided to use the larger diameter case due to the larger bullet.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express,

Continuing on the 475 trail, can you explain why the current Kynamco loads show the 475 No2 with a 480gr bullet at 2200FPS at 15.5 Tonnes and the 475 with a 500gr bullet at 2120 and 14 Tonnes, same barrel length. This has always seemed odd to me.

JPK

Gentlemen,
400 Nitro is correct.
The 450 No2 and the 475 No2 are not the same case. The 475 is bigger at the base and the rim is a little larger in diameter.
No doubt this was done to absolutely prevent the 475 No2 from being fired in a 450 No2.

There are 2 different 475 No2's.
One fires a 480 gr .483 diameter bullet.
The other called the 475 No2 Jeffery, [the older boxes of ammo sometimes said "For Jeffery Rifles"] fires a .488 diameter 500 grain bullet.

Both 475 No2's use the same case.

JPK:

It seems odd to me too. The larger bore would reduce pressure some, but I would think that the increase in bullet weight would more than offset that. The original Jeffery load was 80 Cordite instead of 85, and I don't see that load listed there, at least I don't think it is. The later loading seems to have been 85 Cordite, which I think is the second load listed.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gentlemen

Thank you for the information and correction, I would undoubtedly have gone on believing they were all the one case

400 Nitro Express,

A gain of 20grs bullet weight, a loss of only 80fps and a 1 1/2 tonne drop in pressure just don't seem to add up.

I meant to ask in my prior post if you might be able to point me to a source for the Flemming book you recommended.

Thanks,

JPK

JPK:

Fleming's book is from Armory Publications. I think it must be out of print. I bought it for $60 when it came out. I googled it. Geez, some of those guys want $400 for it! Bill Flemings "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges". Good luck.
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"Serious rifle have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."