As we all know, there are those that use with perfect confidence
belted cartridges in their DRs on dangerous game. Others with much
experience feel that at some point that practice will make a man
pay the piper. I ask now though, if you are talking about NON dan-
gerous game, why not opt for a nice common factory load of 243 Win
or 270 Win or 30-06 or 338 WM. Yes the ejection aspect is still
there to some degree depending on how well the rifle's been made.
But we're NOT talking about a charge from a dangerous game beast.
We ARE talking about not getting off shot number THREE on a deer,
moose, or other NON DG animal. I think the trade off between GUAR-
ANTEED clearly cheaper, and much available factory ammo, vs the POS-
SIBILITY of flawed ejection IS WORTH SERIOUS CONSIDERATION IN A
NON DG RIFLE.
I saw Bradley Bradshaw post in another thread about not building any
DRs in other than flanged/rimmed carts. I really hope Mr. B that you
post a response here as all evidence indicates that your a superb crafts-
man. I fired a DR in 375 H&H bltd built by www.ttproctor.com that he had
built to be his own for African DG; but a man offered him a figure that
he could not refuse so it was sold. The buyer went off with perfect con-
fidence and shot an excellent male lion shortly after taking possession
of this rifle.
As a side note my eye loves a Ferlach built scoped O/U, in 9.3 cal.
and smaller for NON DG pursuits. ELEGANT is the word that dominates
my thoughts when I think of such a rifle. Feel free to comment on the
O/U vs SxS issue regarding 9.3 and smaller rifles for NON DG as you
care to.

Westley Richards did in fact make some DRs in 270 Winchester. But if you are looking at a DR specifically for "non-dangerous" game there are already a whole raft of calibres with rims.

300 H & H. Flanged.

But if you want something more available the in Europe 7x57R, 7x65R, 8x57JR and 9.3x74R.

And 30 Blaser.

Certainly there is no suitable rimmed cartridge ammunition problem for use in continental Europe! Where even 7x57R will be available although it has lost favour to 7x65R.

7x65R will pretty much do anything that the 270 or 30-06 class will do and for the heavier weight bullets there is 8x57R.

All the cartridges in my middle group are readily available and I therefore see no point at all in the ADDITIONAL EXPENSE of making a DR for a rimless round.

Having said that it isn't too difficult it is just a spring loaded stud in the ejector that engages the groove on the rimless case and CZ BRNO make combination guns with a .223" barrel already.

But you do need then to find ammunition with a good cut groove!

Here's my 2 cents if you go with a double go flanged, it will work hell or high water all the time 100%.

Would you build a bolt rifle on a flanged cartridge. Its been done they work. But there's a chance that flanged cartridge, some day some how is going to jam.

Jack:

Most of the time when I have heard this discussion about rimmed vs. belted cartridges in a double rifle it has centered around the .375 H&H. Most of us will never, ever hunt dangerous game alone. We will be accompanied by a PH to back us up. (Yea, yea, I know that sometimes the PH may not be in position to take the shot.) However, the days of a hunter wandering off into the jess all my himself to sort out a wounded buffalo are all but gone. As a client I would have no problem hunting with a belted .375 H&H in a double rifle. A PH might indeed have a different view. All the makers make a double in .375 H&H belted and I just can't believe that they would produce such guns if they thought they were inclined to fail. I would hunt with one. Now, that being said, many makers such as Chapuis make the flanged .375 and flanged .375 brass is readily available again so that would be my pick. Just my two cents.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
.....
As a side note my eye loves a Ferlach built scoped O/U, in 9.3 cal.
and smaller for NON DG pursuits. ELEGANT is the word that dominates
my thoughts when I think of such a rifle....

Jack,

Stop rationalizing and just go ahead and buy the rifle

A perfect analogy exist in the bolt rifle world and I'm sure all of us here are bolt trash owners.
Some people belive if your hunting DG with a bolt rifle it must be CRF, I pritty much follow that rational but I also know that extracter failier with button extracters is fairly rare with proper ammo etc.
My question is if anyone here who adamantly pontificates flannged only in a Double do you even own a M700?

I re-visited this thread today and thought this.

The OTHER advantage of a rimmed cartridge that relates to either a DR or a Ruger No1 (or even a Winchester 94) is this....with a rim it is a sight easier to get out of a leather loop on a cartridge belt or belt slide!

When stalking ("hunting") here in UK with a rimless round using bolt rifle I will carry a full magazine and spare rounds (6mm Remington, 270, 280 or 8x60s Mauser) in military five round stripper clips.

One in each available pocket. And rotate them to the nearside pocket if/when the clip in that pocket becomes empty.

When I've used a rimmed round (except 303) I've carried the spare ammunition in a loop on a belt slide. Those rims make getting the ammunition out a lot easier!

In fact I would NEVER carry rimless rounds in a loop type belt slide or cartridge belt.

If you look at the European websites where guns are sold, you will frequently see doubles and singles by makers we all respect (the French not so much because military cartridges are illegal to possess) made with rimless cartridges.

It is not some small percentage either--maybe a quarter of all doubles, maybe half of all single shots.

After all, when they are used in their domestic market, nobody could care less about Anglicized traditions for hunting dangerous game in the former British Empire. Why should they?

We spend significant time agonizing and lecturing each other about stuff that obviously doesn't matter while hunting deer--how many triggers are "proper", ejectors or extractors, scopes are sacrilege on doubles but OK on other 19th century firearm designs, et cetera.

When I ordered my Krieghoff "Teck" O/U double rifle in 1970, I ordered it with interchangeable barrels in .458 Winchester Magnum and .375 H&H simply because there was then no reliable source for rimmed dangerous game cartridges in existance.

I carried it on three trips to Africa (total 11 weeks) and took four of the Big Five with it with total confidence, because I had shot the hell out of it beforehand.

Would I have gone with flanged cartridges, had they been available? There's no doubt about it, I would have.

But I would also realized that there is a down side to flanged cartridges, also. If you run low on ammunition, as I did on my first, five week, safari, you have precious little chance of finding any but the most common rimless or belted cartridges locally.

One of the basic reasons for the design of the British double rifle was to give you a large caliber bullet at moderate velocity and pressure. In a flanged case to easy extraction.
Primary used for hunting dangerous game up close in tropical heat.

Nitro Express rounds are not your modern day High Velocity rimless or belt magnum rounds.

SO, if you are not hunting dangerous game without back up, and shooting a modern double rifle proofed for whatever round, go for it!

Side Bar-
I too have moved away from the "It's gotta be CRF, or it's not good for DG." Mauser M 03 is push feed, claw extraction. Works every time!