What is your vote for the best "all around" double caliber? For me, that would be the .500/.416. Shoots as flat as the .375 and hits like a .470. Perfect for buffalo/bison/bears and I don't think you would be undergunned even for a tusker and with a scope (yech!) you could even reach out and take plains game.

A great Caliber no doubt, but I still have to go with the .470 NE for Ammo availability in places like Africa.

450/400 or the 470 IMHO.

450 3 1/4...the first and the best! If it weren't for the English ban on .45 caliber sporting calibers in 1908 during the rebellions in India and elsewhere, there would be no 470, 465, 475 #2, etc....cuz the 450 3 1/4 was doing just fine by itself!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
450 3 1/4...the first and the best! If it weren't for the English ban on .45 caliber sporting calibers in 1908 during the rebellions in India and elsewhere, there would be no 470, 465, 475 #2, etc....cuz the 450 3 1/4 was doing just fine by itself!!!

The 470NE had nothing to do with the 1908 ban on the .450 cal in India, and the Sudan. The 470NE was introduced in 1900 by Joseph Lang, and was opened to the trade so became very popular with all the makers!

I think when you think of all the trials, and tribulations in owning, feeding, and hunting with only one double rifle, the 450NE 3 1/4" has it all. It is pleanty powerfull for anything on the planet, yet is an easy cartridge to load, and works on deer, boar, bear Moose, elk, and will even kill Texas blacktail jackrabbits! .458 bullets are everywhere, and cheap, several powders work with it. The rifles don't have to weight a ton, and they shoot flat enough to utilize a scope well. It will do anything the larger cartridges will with less recoil, and is cheap enough to shoot a lot to get really good with the rifle.

...........450NE 3 1/4" double rifle 10 pounds, with a QD scope as back-up, gets my vote!

.....................

450/400 or as Dave says 500/416. I agree the 500/416 hits harder....at both ends...but either could be considered "best all-around".

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

.500 NE. Tame enough for the pigmy antelope and stout enough for the big stuff.

Best all around? If I may be permitted to break it apart into two choices, North America and Africa.
For the USA my vote goes to the 9,3x74R. Only have shot two bull moose with mine but it worked
Africa? Have to defer to the experts here as I doubt I'll ever be able to get enough experience to make an intelligent choice. But on paper my choice would be the 450 NE 3 1/4.

My best all around presently is my 470,although I have other rifles,I have been shooting it the most,I would keep the standard loads for the big guys,for pigs and such I just load a lighter bullet and it works just fine,shot one at about 125 yrds last month,400 gr Speer,one bullet one immediately dead pig,I think how well your gun fits you and how much you shoot it makes it best all around one way or the other.

I am going to most likely step on a lot of toes with this response however I never really looked at a double rifle as a "all around" type gun.
I always envisioned them as stopping rifles! That being said I would look at a 450 X 3 1/4 or 470.

If I wanted a all around rifle / caliber it would probably be in the 375 or 416 persuasion in a scoped bolt gun.
Fire away; I will duck and cover!

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
450 3 1/4...the first and the best! If it weren't for the English ban on .45 caliber sporting calibers in 1908 during the rebellions in India and elsewhere, there would be no 470, 465, 475 #2, etc....cuz the 450 3 1/4 was doing just fine by itself!!!

I like this answer and wish it were true. (It is true wrt many of the cartridges listed... they wouldn't exist but for British beaurocrats)

The truth is either 375H&H or 458wm. Ubiquitously available ammo, and it you regulate with Federal Ammo then ubiquitously available regulation ammo.

For the 458wm, it will do anything and every thing except varmits. Trajectory flatter than most think. But heavy recoil.

For the 375H&H, it will do everything, as flat a trajectory as is ever really needed. But light for elephants.

My vote is 375H&H.

(I vote with my $'s, I have sidelocks in both cartridges.)

JPK

eezrider:

For guys that like to scope a double, I think some doubles can be all around guns. For example, eithe the .375 or .500/.416 can be used with open sights for close in shooting or, with a scope, they shoot flat enough for plains game at reasonable ranges. However, since I don't care for scopes on doubles, I agree with you that the best of all worlds is a double PAIRED with a scope sighted bolt. I have a .416 Rigby to go with my .500/.416. I think another terrific combination is a 9.3X62 or .375 bolt gun and a heavy double in the .450-.500 range.

If you open it up to all rifles, and ammo consideration is a big part to you, then I would say by all means a bolt rifle, in probably 416 Rigby or Remington. Plenty strong enough and with great penetration with 400gr, or even now 450gr bullets, but certainly adequate for longer shots at plains game, Buff, etc.

But in sticking to the DR, and not considering running out of ammunition and looking for more, I'd still say the 450 3 1/4. Unlike a bolt rifle, a DR not only depends on caliber, but specific loading for regulation, whether factory or handloaded. The chance of finding not only the right caliber, but also a load for which your DR is regulated, is pretty slim. Before leaving, just swap a box of ammo with your hunting partner, or lock your ammo in the case with the gun. If the guncase is lost, what concern is the ammunition for it anyway!

It would very difficult for me to place a scope on the beautiful traditional lines of a nice double rifle. Too me they were made to be shot open sighted. That being said my eyes are beginning to falter a bit and I have seen where some folks are leaning towards these small reflex sights; (pretty neat!)
I would agree with you in a paired offering.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you open it up to all rifles, and ammo consideration is a big part to you, then I would say by all means a bolt rifle, in probably 416 Rigby or Remington. Plenty strong enough and with great penetration with 400gr, or even now 450gr bullets, but certainly adequate for longer shots at plains game, Buff, etc.

But in sticking to the DR, and not considering running out of ammunition and looking for more, I'd still say the 450 3 1/4. Unlike a bolt rifle, a DR not only depends on caliber, but specific loading for regulation, whether factory or handloaded. The chance of finding not only the right caliber, but also a load for which your DR is regulated, is pretty slim. Before leaving, just swap a box of ammo with your hunting partner, or lock your ammo in the case with the gun. If the guncase is lost, what concern is the ammunition for it anyway!

Biebs,

With your qualifications, I agree.

However, in my experience in Africa and everywhere else, Federal 500gr Trophy bonded 458wm and 300gr Trophy Bonded ammo is everywhere. For example, I can pick up softs or solids down the street here at my local gunshop, or in Harare, Bulawayo, even in many camps in the middle of nowhere.

I have borrowed both 300gr Federal Trophy Bonded soft 375H&H ammo and 500gr solid 458wm ammo, IN TWO CAMPS, in Zim to complete a seven week safari. The 5kg, 11lbs limit can't provide enough ammo for a long trip.

JPK

quote:

For the 458wm, it will do anything and every thing except varmits.

Well, we once had a muskrat shoot with a .458. One did the spotting and acted as fire control. When the bullets hit the water parts of the varmint went high like the sky and the water explosion I thought bore a passing resemblance to naval main battery fire. In the muskrat's case, weight of broadsides carried the day..

Seriously, Taylor in his book was asked this same question and came up with a lengthy and persuasive argument with examples in favor of the choice being - .375 Magnum in an H&H double with scope. The guy who ordered that gun used it all over the world to collect specimens of just about everything.

As far as the long ago .450 ban, I know zero about the details but one doesn't have to, to know one thing for sure. It didn't matter. All the biggies would have in time been invented anyway. Somebody's always going to want whatever is the next bigger and more powerful gun. That's just how it works with every caliber, gauge or type firearm there's ever been.

JPK,

With your Marcel Thys (or Lebeau Couralley or Perugini Viscini, I forget) pair of sidelocks, you should be able to afford having someone follow you around with a case of ammo for each!!!! Biebs

450/400

I am gona have to vot with Snowwolfe on this one.

9.3x74R is the best all round IMHO

By the way, I interpet all round as something that can do a little bit of everything and be used well more than once. For example, most of us will only kill MAYBE one elephant, a few buffalo but ALOT of animals in the medium to large plains game size (bears moose eland zebra elk caribou pigsect ect ect) A 470, 500 or any of the big ones are more of a purpose built gun for the big stuff.

Keep in mind I am somewhat biased by owning a Chapuis in 9.3x74r that I love shooting and has killed a few things very well!!

All-Around
Personal preference: 450/400

Most useful : .375 H&H

Reason-ammo availability,
(even though I do prefer a rimmed cartridge in a DR)


Most useful (bigger DR): 470

(or perhaps .458 Win Mag)
again ammo availability

Though I still prefer a .500NE

.470 NE. I know a lot of folks who have multiple safaris who have settled on one. Ammunition is available everywhere in Africa. Butch told me about half his total every year is .470's, that says where the "vote with your wallet" crowd is.

I'm getting mine in about a week, so obviously I am a bit prejudiced.

Rich

either 450/400 or 500/465

Why? because that happens to be the the calibers of the
two double rifles I own!

Jungleboy

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
JPK,

With your Marcel Thys (or Lebeau Couralley or Perugini Viscini, I forget) pair of sidelocks, you should be able to afford having someone follow you around with a case of ammo for each!!!! Biebs

Biebs,

The rifles are a Marcel Thys, in 458wm, and an Abiatico & Slavinelli (aka Farmars) in 375H&H.

At African day labor rates, you are not wrong! But that 5kg - 11lb limit for flying with ammo means there isn't much to carry. Not enough for a long, multi ele, multi buff, full bag safari.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you open it up to all rifles, and ammo consideration is a big part to you, then I would say by all means a bolt rifle, in probably 416 Rigby or Remington. Plenty strong enough and with great penetration with 400gr, or even now 450gr bullets, but certainly adequate for longer shots at plains game, Buff, etc.

But in sticking to the DR, and not considering running out of ammunition and looking for more, I'd still say the 450 3 1/4. Unlike a bolt rifle, a DR not only depends on caliber, but specific loading for regulation, whether factory or handloaded. The chance of finding not only the right caliber, but also a load for which your DR is regulated, is pretty slim. Before leaving, just swap a box of ammo with your hunting partner, or lock your ammo in the case with the gun. If the guncase is lost, what concern is the ammunition for it anyway!

Biebs,

With your qualifications, I agree.

However, in my experience in Africa and everywhere else, Federal 500gr Trophy bonded 458wm and 300gr Trophy Bonded ammo is everywhere. For example, I can pick up softs or solids down the street here at my local gunshop, or in Harare, Bulawayo, even in many camps in the middle of nowhere.

I have borrowed both 300gr Federal Trophy Bonded soft 375H&H ammo and 500gr solid 458wm ammo, IN TWO CAMPS, in Zim to complete a seven week safari. The 5kg, 11lbs limit can't provide enough ammo for a long trip.

JPK

A little off topic (7 week Safari!!!) Holy crap ; I thought 21 days was a long Safari?

EZ

JPK,

Well, since the ammo is so available as you say, but a case of each at Bulawayo and head on out to put a serious dent in the animal population surveys!

I have done something similar, the PH I most often hunt with is storing my own spare ammo from shorter or less prolific trips.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you open it up to all rifles, and ammo consideration is a big part to you, then I would say by all means a bolt rifle, in probably 416 Rigby or Remington. Plenty strong enough and with great penetration with 400gr, or even now 450gr bullets, but certainly adequate for longer shots at plains game, Buff, etc.

But in sticking to the DR, and not considering running out of ammunition and looking for more, I'd still say the 450 3 1/4. Unlike a bolt rifle, a DR not only depends on caliber, but specific loading for regulation, whether factory or handloaded. The chance of finding not only the right caliber, but also a load for which your DR is regulated, is pretty slim. Before leaving, just swap a box of ammo with your hunting partner, or lock your ammo in the case with the gun. If the guncase is lost, what concern is the ammunition for it anyway!

Biebs,

With your qualifications, I agree.

However, in my experience in Africa and everywhere else, Federal 500gr Trophy bonded 458wm and 300gr Trophy Bonded ammo is everywhere. For example, I can pick up softs or solids down the street here at my local gunshop, or in Harare, Bulawayo, even in many camps in the middle of nowhere.

I have borrowed both 300gr Federal Trophy Bonded soft 375H&H ammo and 500gr solid 458wm ammo, IN TWO CAMPS, in Zim to complete a seven week safari. The 5kg, 11lbs limit can't provide enough ammo for a long trip.

JPK

A little off topic (7 week Safari!!!) Holy crap ; I thought 21 days was a long Safari?

EZ

"Only" 30 hunting days. Hunted Cheowre South, Chete, Omay, a conservancy the name of which escapes me and the Save Conservancy. Hunted elephants, buff, lion, leopard, lots of plains game, some for bait, some for the trophy.

After about four weeks, all traces of homesickness evaporate and I begin to forget my wife's name and face, loose recall of my kid's bithdays and ages, my home address...

I am "lucky" that I didn't make the opportunity to go elephant hunting until I was in my early forties. I might not have come back.

And I'm not kidding.

JPK

That's easy...the one you own or the one you want!

On my last ele hunt I took 40 rounds for the 458 Win and 40 for the 465 Nitro. As it turnrd out that put me one Kg over the limit. It ended up with me using seven rounds of ammo to take 5 elephants, that included finishing rounds. I will cut the number of rounds for next year by half.

465H&H

I preface my answer with this statement:

If I only had one rifle to hunt everything I wanted to hunt in world, this is what I would choose:

.450/400

Sure I would rather have something larger when going after big nasties, or something smaller to go after deer, but if I only had one rifle to hunt everything with, I would go with the .450/400.

BUT THANK GOD ALL MIGHTY I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE JUST ONE DR!

strong opinions all, but backed up. This will be perhaps my only DR, so it will be the .470 Searcy.
If I could swing two and still hunt Africa; I think a .500NE and a .450-.400 3 1/4 would be a great pairing.

Rich

Since you don't limit it's use to DG then I would opt for a 375 Flanged. It can be used for every thing from deer and sheep to elephant. But since I concentrate on elephant, I have a 465 and a 470 double.

465h&H

I have a .470 and a .450-400. I'm leaning towards the .450-400 right at this moment.