Eleeton:
How hard is to "find a way to make this right for me"?
Just tell her to send you a certified check for the amount you paid to have this project done, and include extra to cover the cost of a new shotgun if he did something to the action. Seems pretty simple to me, and doesn't seem to need a lot of "working to find" a way to make this right for you.

Eric:
Please don't fall for the Mrs.' sob stories about their business closing due to the bad publicity and the fact they don't have any money. They can borrow from a bank or from the Christian school they are affiliated with. If he was truly repentant he would have spoken to you himself and not his old lady. And, he would have been in communication with you over the years. Of course he never should have done this quality of work in the first place. Give him hell and don't give up:
you're at the attorney general's office
call the Better Business Bureau
sue him in Texas courts
call the BATFE about this manufacturing license and the quality of work he delivers
call his church and the Christian school for mediation
use a collection agency to hound him.
I'm sure there are more.
Check out what I added to my website <calpappas.com>
You have a lot of support from a great bunch of fellas on this forum.
Cheers,
Cal

I talked with a local attorney and verified that there is really nothing a local attorney can do unless I injured myself with the rifle. Even then they may do nothing if they aren't certain there is money to be had to pay for expenses and such. I am waiting for the certified mail receipt confirmation. This proves that 1. he knows I am not happy with the product and 2. he has received my terms if you will.

One thing that has bothered me throughout this ordeal is that I have to initiate and I have to call or e-mail to get information.

I will again talk with the Maine AG on Tuesday. I should have my confirmation by then.

Tried to go to his web page just now and received a 404-page not found error.

Cal is right. You can sue him in Texas. You may not get anything, but you can win a default judgement if he does not show up.

Rusty,

In civil court, small claims or how? The few folks I've talked with said it is not possible to do this.

I company sold us a bad machine, Then they refused to honor our agreement on warranty. We sued them in Texas court and the trial was set here. It was resolved the week before trial.

Make his lawyers come to Texas to practice law!
You may not get anything but a victory in your case, but at least you have that!

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Tried to go to his web page just now and received a 404-page not found error.

I still see it up at: http://jwhitegunsmithing.com/g....html#bn-service-top

I see one comment about this gun and two replies

He took the guest book off line. His page no longer has the link. You can still access it from the link you provided though.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rusty:
Cal is right. You can sue him in Texas. You may not get anything, but you can win a default judgement if he does not show up.[/QUO

Hugh Liedtke showed you can sue an out of state outfit in Texas courts when he won a 10 billion dollar judgement against Texaco (a New York company) for interferring with his Getty Oil deal.

he has not answered my email requesting info from him! or maybe he just does not want to build another double rifle

Gents:
I've sent him several emails asking for his side of the story. No replies, not even from his wife (who now does his talking for him as he has been caught).
Cheers,
Cal

I am not a lawyer but I have followed similar issues. He engaged in interstate commerce hence you can sue in Federal Court in Texas. A friend of mine did this when he got cheated on a custom model RR layout that didn't work. The layout cost him 80 grand; the local lawyer and filing the Federal Suit cost about 10 grand. The SOB settled when he realized how much it was gonna cost him to try to fight the suit 4 states away.

So, it will cost you 10K to file a Fed suit, but you can do it.

Only you can decide if it's worth it.

I always thought one had to be licensed to manufacture guns (BTF?) - given the shoddiness of his work, I bet is paperwork isn't any better and BATF might like to know. I also bet that he doesn't collect sales tax and that he doesn't file returns with the state for his business.

It's very easy to find out if he's incorporated with the state and if his corporation is current (it needs to be be properly renewed each year)

This boy has a lot of loose ends that you can help unravel by yourself. The Maine Secy of State will have the business info on him.

Since he manufactures, presumably he's in full compliance with OSHA, pays the state worker's comp and especially complies with the Federal and State pollution laws. Google Earth will show you if he abuts a wetland and if he does, I bet he's thrown crap into it. Is his factory in an area zoned for industry and manfacturing?

Go have some fun....

Oxon,

I already talked with the BATFE and they say there is nothing they can do officially. In they audited him and found a few errors. They also made him stop doing business under his gunsmith license and made him apply for a manufacturer's license. I heard nothing from him for about a year during this change of license.

As to taxes and such that I don't know. To my knowledge he runs the shop and his wife does the paperwork.

The other ideas are worth thinking about.

Eric

This morning I pulled the bullets from two of the loaded rounds Jim supplied. I wanted to see how the cartridges fit into the chamber, check the firing pin strike and extraction. One pin was off center but both primers ignited.

I also decided to check the loads. Jim told me that he filled them 69 gr. of 4895 and topped off with wheat germ. The filler didn't really look like wheat germ to me. It looked more like fine shavings. It also had a mild, soapy taste to it. Didn't really seem like wheat germ to me. The first cartridge had a total load of 76.5 gr or 67.5 gr powder + 9 gr filler. The second was 77.2 total or 67.2 powder and 10 gr filler. QuickLOAD would seem to indicate that both loads would make the 2000-2100 fps that was requested.

Here is his e-mail as posted on his web page. I also sent a message to him which appears to have gone through. Perhaps you can use a different computer-in case he is dodging your address- and let him know you are following legal action.
Frank

Frank,

I guess my use of words was incorrect. My e-mails do appear to make it through but they do not receive a response from Jim.

On 4 June he received my certified letter formalizing my complaint and requesting a refund. There are provisions in Maine's Consumer Law about Implied Warranty of Merchantability, Warranty of Fitness and Dangerous Consumer Goods. Before this I had e-mailed and left voice mails with no response. On 5 June I called the number listed for the firearms course and ended up talking with his wife. I called again yesterday and left a message.

So despite a verbal assurance from his wife that he is working to make things right and multiple attempts to communicate with him he still refuses to respond.

Cal
I read your lasest comments on your webite. Thats some funny stuff. "London quality", ect, ect. After reading that I almost spit my coffee all over the screen. Very funny stuff. Too bad Jim White can't reply here and tell his story of how he became a gunbuilder extrodinaire.

I'm not a fan of making double rifles out of shoguns but here is an example of what I would expect if I had a professional do the job.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=291106521

All,

After leaving a voice mail I received and e-mail from Mr. White. It appears that we may have reached a solution agreeable to both of us.

I had originally requested a refund within 30 days of his receipt of my certified letter. Jim has informed me that he will try to gather the necessary funds within 30 days but may need up to 60 days to do so.

While this story is not yet complete I find it to be a good sign that Mr. White has contacted me and appears to be willing to make things right.

Eric

Brain1:
Thanks for the kind words. Actually I wanted to get the word out on my site in both a positive and humorous way and not incur any liability accusations by White. And, I teach my kids at school NOT to drink liquids next to a computer!

Eric:
Use the photos posted above by 470Evans to strengthen you claim against White. That is how it should be done and that is what you expected.
Cheers, all
Cal

Eric:
Your above post made it as I was typing this. Hold the sob to his word. Thirty days in enough for a man to take a loan from a bank or his church. A fella like him will stretch this to the limit. And, my article was accepted for the African Hunter magazine on how NOT to build double rifle barrels. They will run it and use the photos. If you do get a refund from White, I can have the AH remove his name and contacts if you wish. Being in Zimbabwe they are not worried about White coming after them for liability.
Cheers, and I'm very glad this will work out for you.
Cal

PS. Claim interest on the money and all shipping and other expenses.

I certainly wish you success and hope that Mr. White follows through with his promise.
Frank

Gents:
Eric sent me White's reply to the state's BBB. I laughed so hard I nearly wet myself. If I had known the "gunsmith" was so full of himself I would have worn depends. He states the only complaint Eric should have is the time it took to complete the work. No safety issues, slander, numerous posts and emails against him and he does not understand why anyone would complain about his work. For vindication, White should put the barrels and the photo up on HIS website. But that won't happen AND he is willing to pay an extra $1000 to get them back. I wonder if he will shoot them both for accuracy and safety?
It looks like Eric will prevail and I thank all you wonderful folks who came to his aid. Eric, PLEASE post White's letter to the BBB. Everyone here needs a good laugh.
Cheers,
Cal

Here is the response on file with the Maine BBB. I believe my posts have been fair, honest and not malicious. I will admit that they reflected a tone of disappointment and amazement.

In response to this complaint from Mr. L, J. White Gunsmithing has always maintained a 100% satisfaction policy and has never intended to stray from this. Mr. L chose to slander with his response through several internet forums and brought a number of malicious attacks on my company via email and other electronic media, my website and facebook pages were swamped with derogatory comments, and other family members have been getting phone calls, most of these attacks were from people who have never done business with my company.

I have been a gunsmith since 1990 and have never experienced such protests, especially within 12 hours of the customer receiving the product, and without opportunity to communicate prior to the public attacks on my business and on my personal life. Due to this I have refrained from making any comments to any of the attacks. Mr. L. has valid complaints about the time that the project took but I disagree with any accusation of there being a safety issue with the product. I am offering him not only the $3000 he spent on the project but an additional $1000 for the base shotgun that was purchased for the project and I am covering all shipping expenses.


At this point I am just happy that Mr. White has formally agreed to remunerate me in keeping with the terms of the complaint I filed with the Maine AG. I have informed the Maine BBB that I agree to the monetary terms offered by Mr. White.

I hope this will all finally be over soon so I can move on with my quest for a DR.

Eric

mmmmmm, what about Quality ........ or lack there of ?

Gents:
Thank you all for coming to the aid of Eric in this fiasco of a situation he is in. I honestly believe White would not have responded had Eric been alone in this venture. The power of the press is awesome and usually it is to the negative when viewed by those of us with a common thread of second amendment and hunting rights. In this case it was positive and the guilty party surrendered.

As to Mr White, he is full of..... well, .... himself. If he has never had a complaint in 22 years of this magnitude it is because he never turned out such piece-of-crap work as he has here. It is interesting he wants the barrels back. It will be interesting to see (or not to see) what he does with them. I doubt they will appear on his site as an example of his craftsmanship. As to the issue of safety, I challenge White to shoot a full house load with the barrels he constructed.

As far a slander, Eric was honest in this matter and justified in his disappointment. It would never have gone public if White owned up to the fact and communicated with Eric. As to the fact of others in his family taking communication, it is because Mr. White would not / did not come to the phone, he had his wife do the talking. I emailed and asked for White's side of the story to be fair but, of course, there was no reply.

Just to let you all know, my website <calpappas.com> has the photos and the story and will soon have the BBB letter. I also wrote a short article for the African Hunter magazine for my column Cal on Doubles on how NOT to make a set of double rifle barrels. For those you that read the AH you will enjoy it!

Eric prevailed and will get a refund plus some additional to cover all his costs. Hopefully White will learn a lesson not to turn out such crap again.

Congratulations, Eric!!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
At this point I am just happy that Mr. White has formally agreed to remunerate me in keeping with the terms of the complaint I filed with the Maine AG. I have informed the Maine BBB that I agree to the monetary terms offered by Mr. White.

I hope this will all finally be over soon so I can move on with my quest for a DR.

Eric

Eric, I would be careful about turning the evidence over to Mr. Smith till his check cleared! Once he has the barrles you have no leverage!

.............................................................................

Eric:
Mac's advise is the same as I mentioned to you. Have the check cashed before you send the barrels. Also, find out if there is any legal opinions on sending back the barrels. They might be nice to keep as a paperweight (although the paperweights I've seen have been of better quality).
Cheers,
Cal

First,
I would like say that Mr. Pappas is exactly right in his observations pertaining to the "power of the press". I do not believe I could have reached this point without everyone's efforts on my behalf. So, for your wisdom, support and efforts on my behalf I am most grateful. This journey is not yet over but I now feel that I have at least crested the hill.

Part of our agreement is that Mr. White will provide my refund by certified check and he will prepay the postage to return the barrels and original rifle. I elected to have him keep the original rifle. I felt this was best given the state of the mating surfaces and due to my concerns that the original gun may be compromised. If I were to sell the original shotgun or send it to a reputable gunsmith for conversion only to find at a later date it had problems it would be difficult to address the matter. Being compensated up front mitigates this potential concern.

I have photographs of the work done by Mr. White. He has not denied doing the work as presented but has only denied that there are safety implications.

Maine's Consumer Laws provide for a "make it right" option and for a refund of monies for return of defective goods. Given the documentation with the Maine AG and Maine BBB and with the guidance set forth within Maine's Consumer Law's I don't have a problem returning the barrels and selling him the gun. I do not wish to partake in the "make it right" option.

Thanks to all who have helped in this endeavor,
Eric

Wait thirty days after depositing/cashing the check before returning the botched rifle.

There are very good forgeries of certified and cashier's checks circulating the internet and it can take your bank up to thirty days to catch up to them. If the check is bogus, your bank will come after you.

George

470Evans,

Had I received the rifle shown in the auction I probably would have sent a tip. That sure is a good looking gun. While it is 45-70 I think I could learn to love the cartridge given the price, accessories and the beautiful overall fit and finish to the gun. If it were still out there when my refund comes through I'd definitely be giving it some thought.

Eric

Eric:
How about a Sabatti .450? At 5K they seem like a good buy, Cabelas stands behind them, and the American Rifleman had a good review of them
Cal

I've had my eyes on the Sabatti .450. I actually handled one at Cabela's in Hoffman Estates when I was at the home office in Chicago.

I'm going to wait for the funds to actually come through before I start thinking too seriously. My preference is for the .45 caliber and double triggers. I would consider a .470 as well.

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
I've had my eyes on the Sabatti .450. I actually handled one at Cabela's in Hoffman Estates when I was at the home office in Chicago.

I'm going to wait for the funds to actually come through before I start thinking too seriously. My preference is for the .45 caliber and double triggers. I would consider a .470 as well.

Eric

The Sabatti is probably a good option for you. Just make sure to read about them here on AR, be familiar with some of the issues in the past, look for ground muzzles, and shoot it quickly once you get it so that it can be taken back to Cabelas if you get one that doesn't shoot. I'm not trying to discourage you from the Sabatti. Honestly. Just trying to help you not get taken again because there are some issues with the Cabelas Sabattis. Hopefully, most of those are in the past now.

Todd,

Your point is well taken. I've been keeping up with the Sabatti threads here on the forum.

Right now I'm just working on getting my money returned.

Thank you,
Eric

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Todd,

Your point is well taken. I've been keeping up with the Sabatti threads here on the forum.

Right now I'm just working on getting my money returned.

Thank you,
Eric

Understood. I hope this guy honors his word and comes through for you.

The rifle show by 470Evans is just one example of "birdhunters" workmanship. If you want him to do a proper build based on your SG action then contact him thru that ad at Gunbrokers or at NitroExpress.

Mike,

Thanks for the heads up and contact info on BirdHunter

Eric

I tried calling the Maine AG today to see if they had received confirmation of Mr. White's agreement to refund my money within 30 days if possible but no more than 60 days. The rep assigned to my case wasn't in last Tuesday. This morning I was informed that she was on vacation this week.

Mr. White has agreed to the repayment terms in his response to the Maine BBB and in e-mail to me so I hope that this will carry though to completion in the agreed upon time frame.

I know that there are folks out there who have helped my cause unbeknownst to me. Thank you all again for your efforts on my behalf. This is especially appreciated as most of you do not know me and could have elected to let sleeping dogs lie.

Eric

I'm curious to know how many here on the forum own conversion DR's. Were the built using the existing mono-block or on a newly machined block?

Eric