Hello, I would like to ask for help in determining the proper bullet diameter I need. The rifle is an 1875 Alex Henry 2 3/4 bpe with very good barrel condition.
The cerrosafe muzzle casting appears minimum
.586. When “rolled” in the calipers it goes .588 to .594. Since cerrosafe expands I’m assuming actual is .586-.592. Breech casting shows about .004 taper.

I’ve started with a 530 grain .578 mold based on other rifles. When a slug is dropped from the breech it stops in 8 inches, a rod easily pushes it to a couple inches of the muzzle, where a sharp palm rap drives it out. It shows the triangular corner land marks and each flat is center scrubbed showing barrel contact.

So what size bullet do I need ?

I’ve patched to .588 and .592. Loaded with 70 gr IMR4198 and 5/8 backer it regulates at 1725 FPS. However the groups are substandard at 5-6 inches at 50 yd with frequent flyers to 9 inches. I’m guessing the bullet May be undersized.

I would really like the thoughts of those of you with experience with theses rifles.
Thank you
Larry

duplicate post .......

The rifle likely has a very “generous” groove diameter, especially as Henry rifling usually is taper bored and 7 groove is difficult to measure without a special mic.

I have 3 .577 BP express rifles and they run .590” groove, .596” groove, and .602” groove.
The two wider ones are 1870’s vintage.

Your bullet may be cast too hard and as it is well undersized it isn't bumping up and taking the rifling very well.
Check the hardness of the lead mix are you using and go with at least a .585” bullet then paper patch from there.

Henry rifling "usually" will respond well to soft cast (1-30 or 1-20) paper patched, or groove diameter harder alloy.

Black Powder or duplex loads go with soft cast paper patch.
NfB with H4198? Then Groove diameter or 1-2 thousandths over.
As long as the patched/sized bullet will easily slip fit in a fired case you will be OK.

By "patched" to .588-.592 I presume you mean paper patched......that is a lot of thickness to get from .578 to .590+.....maybe your patches are stripping.
Card wad under the bullet base?
- Mike

Mike, thank you for your reply, and suggestions.
Yes, NfB with IMR 4198, backer rod and paper patched bullet.
I’ve never used card wad under bullet with smokeless. Should I?

Mix 20-1. With the ease of pushing the bullet through by hand, how much larger do you suggest? I am thinking of using
Around .583 and patching up to .593.

Is there any danger of barrel damage by going too large?

Thanks Mike

Thanks mike , you added a bit to your post when editing.
Ok I’ll go to .585 and patch up.
Thanks again
Larry

Accurate moulds are very good and Tom does fast turnaround (typically 2 weeks or less).
http://www.accuratemolds.com

If it were I with your Henry and I needed a new bullet mould I would go with this:
http://www.accuratemolds.com/b...bullet=59-535S-D.png

Specify for 1-20 mix and "as cast" .596"

Easier than paper patch.

For a custom dedicated paper patch mould I use Brooks Moulds https://brooksmoulds.com and patched with 100% cotton rag onionskin paper. Adds ~.006 to the as cast diameter. IMO a card wad under the bullet helps protect the base of the PP bullet in the barrel, and acts like a gas check on grease groove bullets.

Too large with a soft cast bullet especially paper patch won't hurt.....within limits of course.
- Mike

EDIT: oh yea....your milage may vary!

Mike, thank you for the information and links to suppliers.
I’ll let you know when I get the old girl shooting properly.
Best
Larry

Larry,
If you don’t mind, I’m sure a lot of the members here would love to see a few pictures.

- Mike

Hey Mike
Yes,I’m planning to share some pictures as it’s a pretty cool old gun. I’ve only had it a couple weeks and although in good operating shape it has suffered some clumsy refinishing that needs gently corrected. I’m certainly no Buckstix but plan on some documentation of the process.
So I will be posting some pics later.
Larry


Ive really appreciated your help. PM me contact info and I’ll share a few “before” pictures if you like.

If this Henry belonged to me, I would not use NFB loads. I have seen way too many ringed chambers in these old BPE rifles to ever want to use these loads, no matter what the fillers. You are just asking for trouble.

The old girl will probably shoot with 160 grains of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F and a 480 grain .575" diameter traditionally shaped bullet wrapped in 11 to 16lb paper. 1 in 16 to 20 is good. Put a thin hard card wad about .610 diameter under the bullet and a 3/16" grease cookie over the powder.
This is as close to a factory load as you'll get, and that's what it was made to shoot.

I agree with Mike.
Plus, half the fun of shooting these big black powder rifles is the smoke and flame belching from the muzzle!
In reading the accounts of hunting in the jungles of India in the era of black powder rifles, you often see mention of the pall of smoke hanging in the moist still air, so much so that it obscures the view of the game.
I didn't have any appreciation for that description until I shot my own 577 Alex Henry with a big load of black powder!

Well, maybe I live a charmed life?
I must observe that in ~30 years I have never ringed a chamber with either Dacron or (more recently) with backer rod and H4198 and appropriate NfB loads in Express Rifles.

I certainly am open to learning of differing results......with specific load info.

NOTE: for the naysayers; Yes, I still do use 100% Black.......sometimes.
...and I HAVE hunted with 12bore BP loads.....you never know if you have bagged your Pheasant unless you see it drop out the bottom of the smoke cloud.
Cannot imagine dealing with 80%-100% humidity in India’s jungle.
- Mike

90%+ of my shooting black powder express doubles, bore rifle doubles, and double shotguns with twist or Damascus barrels is with smokeless powder. 4198 in the bpe and Blue Dot in the bore rifles and shotguns (also 4198 in numerous express Winchester levers) and never a hint of problems with smokeless.

There are a lot of myths out there and even more statements as fact that are "I heard from someone..." From ringed chambers to twist barrels blowing up with smokeless, etc. I would guess all had their foundation with vastly overloading a cartridge. When loaded to original velocity, pressure, projectile weight and diameter smokeless (nitro for black) is completely safe.

Cal

The statement I made is founded in personal observation from a long career involving antique rifles, from which I am now retired.

The load suggested to the OP, I know from experience, that if properly constructed will have his rifle grouping well enough to see what adjustments to the load are needed, if any are needed at all.

Mike, I have not taken pheasants with black, does a woodcock falling out from under a smoke cloud suffice?

quote:

Mike, I have not taken pheasants with black, does a woodcock falling out from under a smoke cloud suffice?

It does indeed.......with style!
- Mike

I hunt with my Great Grandfathers 1883 vintage W&C Scott 12 bore.....3Drams 1 1/8 oz of #6

Laying over a deer with either a copper - tubed or wooden peg hollowed bullet (papered, of course) pushed with black powder out of a Fraser single shot rifle does a dandy job of filling the freezer, too!