I am thinking of taking the plunge on my first double rifle (450NE), and I have a question on frame size.

I have several SxS shotguns. As most of you know, when buying a SxS shotgun, frame is a big deal. A 28 gauge on a 28 gauge frame is generally a lot more desirable than a 28 gauge on a 20 gauge frame. Similarly the same goes of 16 gauge shotguns on 16 frames instead of 12 frames.

Does this concept apply with Double Rifles? Would a 450 NE be built on the same frame as a 470NE or 500NE??? Do Double Rifle makers scale their frames up and down by caliber, or is it a one size or two sizes fits all??

As always thanks for your help.

Frame size is not really the defining factor in how a double rifle handles.

Many of the new made doubles have a smaller frame size, than the older British guns.

BUT...

The new made doubles handle like a 4x4"fence post, comared to the British doubles, that handle as if they are ALIVE.

I recommend you handle as many double rifles as you can before you buy one.

If it is just impossible for you to do that, then I would recommend that you get a Heym in 450 NE.

the handling feature is really about where you place the weight, when you build them. to put it in general terms, you will need 50% of the weight of the rifle between your hands.

this means that recoil reducers etc. are banned from a fine double rifle. if you place a recoil reducer of say a pound in the stock, then you have to place 2 pounds of weight more in the action, and you would have to place a pound of lead in the ribs, to make it handle again as it should.

but with 4 pounds of extra weight, the felt recoil would be less off course

regarding size, a lot of double rifles in both the large and medium calibers are made on what would be considered 12 gauge actions, we then adjust the fences and the barrel profile for the weight to be optimal for weight distribution.

barrel profile is a much more relevant issue in this.

i hope this answers the question in some way.

best regards

peter

TBD,

Being in Texas I think you can get together with several D/R owners

and handle their goods, likewise a trip to www.champlinarms.com (in

person) who are located in Enid, Ok. will allow for hands on experience

with a large number of rifles. After having your hands on a number of

rifles and shooting some of them, you'll be better equipped to make your
choice. You'll be happy that you took the time to feel these things.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
the handling feature is really about where you place the weight, when you build them. to put it in general terms, you will need 50% of the weight of the rifle between your hands.

this means that recoil reducers etc. are banned from a fine double rifle. if you place a recoil reducer of say a pound in the stock, then you have to place 2 pounds of weight more in the action, and you would have to place a pound of lead in the ribs, to make it handle again as it should.

but with 4 pounds of extra weight, the felt recoil would be less off course

regarding size, a lot of double rifles in both the large and medium calibers are made on what would be considered 12 gauge actions, we then adjust the fences and the barrel profile for the weight to be optimal for weight distribution.

barrel profile is a much more relevant issue in this.

i hope this answers the question in some way.

best regards

peter

Peter is correct in all but one fact! The actions in most new made double rifles, the actions are sized the same as shotgun actions. This is not to say the rifles are built, on actions made and hardened for shotgun use, but sized only. Most 9.3X74R to 470 class rifles are built on 20Ga size actions, and even Merkel's 500NE is made on that size action.

I just went into my gun vault, and measured five double rifles, from Italy, Germany, and England, made from years from 1892 to date, chambered for everything from 8X57JR to 470NE , and all were built on 20ga size actions. If you measure the distance between the fireing pins, there is exactly 1 inch between the centers of the bores on all of them. The 12 ga action size starts with the 500NE in a few, but really doesn't start till you get to the 577NE. In modern double rifles lately they are being made on 28 ga size actions for the 9.3X74R and smaller cartridges, and still use the 20 ga size for the larger ones up to 500NE, and 12 ga size above 500NE. Actions can be made lighter, or heavier and still maintain the same guage size as far as width goes, by makeing the fences, and barr thicker, or thinner.

As Peter says, the difference is the weight distribution, not the size of the action that determines the way a double rifle feels. The density of the wood, and the profile of the barrels along with the weight of the action with 50% of the total weight between the hands, is the key to lively handling.

quote:

Originally posted by NE 450 No2:
Many of the new made doubles have a smaller frame size, than the older British guns.

BUT...

The new made doubles handle like a 4x4"fence post, comared to the British doubles, that handle as if they are ALIVE.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
the handling feature is really about where you place the weight, when you build them. to put it in general terms, you will need 50% of the weight of the rifle between your hands.

this means that recoil reducers etc. are banned from a fine double rifle. if you place a recoil reducer of say a pound in the stock, then you have to place 2 pounds of weight more in the action, and you would have to place a pound of lead in the ribs, to make it handle again as it should.

but with 4 pounds of extra weight, the felt recoil would be less off course

regarding size, a lot of double rifles in both the large and medium calibers are made on what would be considered 12 gauge actions, we then adjust the fences and the barrel profile for the weight to be optimal for weight distribution.

barrel profile is a much more relevant issue in this.

Both true. It's counterintuitive to some, but its axiomatic nonetheless. Given a target weight of X (say 10 lbs), the smaller the action you start with, the less weight between the hands is possible. A small, slim, trim action must result in more weight in the ends, which results in the handling dynamics of a lead pipe. Most of the new "affordable" DRs start with a too small action and their handling suffers because of it.
----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by NE 450 No2:
Many of the new made doubles have a smaller frame size, than the older British guns.

BUT...

The new made doubles handle like a 4x4"fence post, comared to the British doubles, that handle as if they are ALIVE.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
the handling feature is really about where you place the weight, when you build them. to put it in general terms, you will need 50% of the weight of the rifle between your hands.

this means that recoil reducers etc. are banned from a fine double rifle. if you place a recoil reducer of say a pound in the stock, then you have to place 2 pounds of weight more in the action, and you would have to place a pound of lead in the ribs, to make it handle again as it should.

but with 4 pounds of extra weight, the felt recoil would be less off course

regarding size, a lot of double rifles in both the large and medium calibers are made on what would be considered 12 gauge actions, we then adjust the fences and the barrel profile for the weight to be optimal for weight distribution.

barrel profile is a much more relevant issue in this.

Both true. It's counterintuitive to some, but its axiomatic nonetheless. Given a target weight of X (say 10 lbs), the smaller the action you start with, the less weight between the hands is possible. A small, slim, trim action must result in more weight in the ends, which results in the handling dynamics of a lead pipe. Most of the new "affordable" DRs start with a too small action and their handling suffers because of it.
----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Okay, that makes sense. Now I understand. Thanks.

Dave:

Incorporating parts already used for other purposes reduces costs, which helps a lot in hitting the price point and keeping the guns affordable. It's no accident that Krieghoff builds all SxS rifles, 7X65R to .500, on the same action. Since the alternative is physically impossible, by definition, some of those are going to be clubs. It's a trade-off dictated by price.

The entry level "affordable" DRs can certainly be accurate and serviceable, but it isn't realistic to expect them to achieve an ideal. They all incorporate similar compromises necessary to place them on the market in that price range.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express:

Very, very informative posts. Thanks. My S2 is just that... an "affordable double. Not great handling but boy does it shoot. My K-gun is also an "affordable" gun but maybe in the .500/.416 the frame strikes the right balance because it handles a lot better. Good post. Good information. I am beginning to understand this better.

P.S. For those of you who need to adjust the rear sight on your Safari S2, it takes a 1.3 mm allen wrench. Jeez is that hard to find. I finally called the gunsmith at Blaser USA (Andre) and he is sending me one. Those wacky Germans. The allen wrenches needed to adjust the front and rear sights are different sizes and they only send one for the front sight with the rifle. I guess they just figure everyone has a 1.3mm hex head wrench lying around... You do if you are a watch maker

Dave:

I've also found the accuracy of the K-guns to be excellent. A friend has one - an off the rack .500/.416 that he's added .375 Flanged Magnum, 7X65R, and 20 gauge barrels to. All three rifle calibers shoot great.
------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
P.S. For those of you who need to adjust the rear sight on your Safari S2, it takes a 1.3 mm allen wrench. Jeez is that hard to find. I finally called the gunsmith at Blaser USA (Andre) and he is sending me one. Those wacky Germans. The allen wrenches needed to adjust the front and rear sights are different sizes and they only send one for the front sight with the rifle. I guess they just figure everyone has a 1.3mm hex head wrench lying around... You do if you are a watch maker

When you need something that doesn't exist elsewhere, always go to McMaster-Carr! You will find. 1.3 mm wrenches with either long or short arms on this page:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6958a23/=38dmgb

Tom

conco arms claims the smaller the action the stronger

quote:

Originally posted by highcountry2:
conco arms claims the smaller the action the stronger

Don't know who that is, but I think you may have misunderstood what they said - or the statement was just a baseless sales pitch. Either way, it isn't true. With respect to adequate strength for a DR, there's never been a need for a large action. For best handling characteristics though, there IS a need to concentrate weight between the hands - 50% of the weight in one third of the length, and that is best accomplished with steel.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everthing else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by highcountry2:
conco arms claims the smaller the action the stronger

Don't know who that is, but I think you may have misunderstood what they said - or the statement was just a baseless sales pitch. Either way, it isn't true. With respect to adequate strength for a DR, there's never been a need for a large action. For best handling characteristics though, there IS a need to concentrate weight between the hands - 50% of the weight in one third of the length, and that is best accomplished with steel.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everthing else just burns gunpowder."

Mark, I think highcountry misunderstood what they told him! But maybe not, and it is simply someone talking out the wrong orifice!

I think the comment might have been because the rifles today are made from much stronger material, they can be made smaller, and still be stronger. That is true, but that has nothing to do with balance being proper distribution of weight. Zebras of a different stripe!

However I think the problem with the weight distribution of many of the new "OFF the shelf" double rifle is not as much the size of the action as it is using the same barrel profile for the 375 H&H, and the 500NE on that action. The 375H&H being extremely barrel heavy, while the 500NE is much closer to being balanced because of the larger chamber, and bore size making the barrels much lighter, in relation to action, and butt stock weight. This is not to say it is perfect but better balanced. This was the case with some of the very heavy 450/400NE 3 1/4" rifles that were built on the very large profile action mindset, from the Blk powder days, necessitating leaving the barrels quite heavy to balance. In the later doubles chambered for the 450/400NE 3" most are far better balanced, and lighter.