Just curious about accuracy & cost of regulation. I know that they were not built with proper regulation.

How would you define proper regulation?

Joe, I'd give JJ at Champlins a call. More poorly-regulated DRs have probably wound up in his hands than anyone else. He'll let you know if it's worth it, and an estimate of the cost.

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Originally posted by joester:
Just curious about accuracy & cost of regulation. I know that they were not built with proper regulation.

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Originally posted by Macs B:
How would you define proper regulation?

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Originally posted by Biebs:
Joe, I'd give JJ at Champlins a call. More poorly-regulated DRs have probably wound up in his hands than anyone else. He'll let you know if it's worth it, and an estimate of the cost.

Joe they can be regulated properly but it is not as easy as one would think! It is more expensive than RE-REGULATING one that was improperly regulated with soft solder. It is most time necessary to totally remove the ribs which are soft soldered on, to expose any barrel spacers and wedges they can be replaced or modified so a steel thing wedge can be placed between the halves so they can be regulated properly with soft solder

Because MacsB it seems they were hard soldered (silver brazed) in a jig rather that the PROPER method of trial and error with soft solder till the barrels regulated. Those rifle were made by a Japanese shotgun manufacturer where is is common the regulate shotgun barrels in a JIG. That simply doesn’t work when regulating a double rifle!

Biebs I talked to JJ at the DSC show the year I bought the one I have, and at that time he didn’t seem interested in re-regulating mine. He may have changed his mind since, but I doubt it! If, however, he has he’ll be getting mine post haste! They are pretty little rifles and mine shoots tight groups of less than one inch at 50 yds from each barrel. However they seem to like vastly different places for each barrel on the target to print those one inch groups!
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Were the Belgian made FN Browning O/U double rifles regulated properly?

beretta 689s are regulated

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Originally posted by JonP:
Were the Belgian made FN Browning O/U double rifles regulated properly?

Yes they were! They were made by ROKU (spl) while the Winchesters were made by another maker. Some of the Brownings had to be re-regulated because they were regulated with European made American cartridges (30-06 and 270 Win) and didn't shoot very well with American made ammo. The 9.3X74R rifles were better because the ammo available in the USA was German made anyway. In those days most Americans did not understand regulation, so didn't try hand loading to make them shoot properly.

As a rule the Brownings are good buys, even if they need re-regulating. Because they were regulated with soft solder rather than Silver brazing so the ribs do not normally have to be removed.

5seventy has a Winchester Grand European that he re-regulated himself and says it shoots perfectly now. I certainly hope JJ has decided to re-regulate the Winchesters, because I have one that sorely needs regulating. I say REGULATING rather the RE-REGULATING because it wasn't regulated by the maker in the first place!

I have no idea how 5seventy went about regulating his Winchester, and he fairly close mouthed about his process. It makes little difference because he says it shoots to regulation now.
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I have both rifles, Browning & Winchester, in .270. The Browning is accurate w/ both barrels, the Winnie, not so much! My gunsmith suggested trying different ammo in each barrel, so that is my next move. Thanks to all for suggestions.

quote:

Originally posted by joester:
I have both rifles, Browning & Winchester, in .270. The Browning is accurate w/ both barrels, the Winnie, not so much! My gunsmith suggested trying different ammo in each barrel, so that is my next move. Thanks to all for suggestions.

ACCURACY and REGULATION are two entirely different things! My Win GE is about as accurate as one could expect, but regulation is non-existent. Both my barrels print tight 1 inch groups, they just shoot them to different places on the target. IMO, having to use different ammo for each barrel is not the best idea anyone ever had. Your Winchester needs to be regulated so those barrel will print a tight composite group of both barrels with the centers of each barrel's individual group on it's on side equal to half the distance between the centers of each barrel in a vertical line. on the target regardless of distance. That is, if perfectly regulated! If that is the case only the shooter is to blame for blown composite group.

That is very hard to achieve with loading alone when the barrels were poorly regulated, and not easy, in many cases, when they were regulated properly.

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Thanks, Mac. I'm just not sure if I want to $pend on a rifle with no guarantee of getting regulated. Plus I don't know if the expense would be worth it, re: later resale?

Easy Joe. Just sell me that 375 Ruger lever takedown of yours and you'll have all the cash you need !!

I'm waiting for the US F&W Service to "un-do" their elephant ban import so I can use that .375 again!

As I recollect Grand Europeans went for about a grand when they stopped making them. A well regulated gun would be worth a lot more (IMHO) than a gun that was not well regulated. I would think you could get more than your money back.
Peter.

I bought my FN-Browning CCS 25 in 9,3x74R in 1982. It came with this factory target shot at 80 meters


Later, when I had the rifle scoped, it was regulated to this

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Originally posted by Andre Mertens:

I bought my FN-Browning CCS 25 in 9,3x74R in 1982. It came with this factory target shot at 80 meters


Later, when I had the rifle scoped, it was regulated to this

I remember when Andre decided to scope his Browning. However I don't remember if the rifle was already fitted with the claw mounts when he bought it. If it was already fitted with the mounting system, then it may have been regulated with a scope that was radically different in weight and size than the one placed on the rifle by Andre. If that was the case, it brings back the switching of scopes on a double rifle sometimes adversely effecting the rifles ability to regulate.

If it was that the rifle was NOT already fitted with the scope mounts, then adding them and a scope to the rifle required the rifle to be re-regulated with the scope in place.

Andre will know the answers to those questions, and his answer will clear that up. However either way it brings back the fact that mounting a scope on a double rifle that wasn't regulated with a scope by the maker, or if it was, changing scopes can, and often does change the rifles regulation.

This is not saying the Browning was not properly regulated, just that changing anything that changes the weight of the way it recoils is something that often requires the rifle to need re-regulation.

None of this is the reason that the Grand European needs regulation! They simply were never regulated properly in the first place, and that has nothing to do with the rifle being changed in any way.

Mac is 100% right. My rifle left the factory without scope bases and was regulated with iron sights to FN's standards, i.e. 2x2 shots within 5 cm (2") at 80 meters (88 yds). Each bbl. kept its shots touching but I've always been bothered by the "gap" between respective groups. I'll admit it never made a difference in the number of animals killed or missed in drive hunts but then, it's all in the head I know, I'll only be satisfied when both of my bbls. shoot in 1 hole... Later, I had the rifle scoped (bases were hand fitted and silver soldered on the top bbl.).

I can assure you that the newly scoped rifle did need regulating over (I attended the works and after 3-4 sessions of unsoldering - moving wedge in/out - resoldering, I was finally satisfied to see both bbls. making a single hole. Under field conditions (well nearly, I held a stalking stick in my left hand to stabilize), it shoots 2x2 handloads like this at 50 meters :

NB : holding rifle and stick together made the rifle shoot slightly left (most probably because it impedes free swinging under recoil).

I expect some reactions about my possible exaggeration of trivial details, but then, anecdotally, the literature that came with the rifle goes much, much further when describing all conditions which may/will affect bbls. grouping together. Be my guest :

1. bbl. convergence is dictated by many factors. Muzzle jump (different according to ammo used), rifle mass/weight, its center of gravity and balance point (an individual rifle's characteristic). I'll give you one more : each bbl. will/may react with a different torque than its brother. All this explain why only experience and patience will make a competent double rifle regulator and the latter will never be matched by any robot or laser, present or to come ;

2. the rifle is regulated with one kind of ammunition, even a change in production lot may bring changes (it is advised to buy a provision of ammo from the same lot) ;

3. the U bbl. should be fired before the O. Otherwise, the mean POI will be lower than expected ;

4. regulation is attained with both chambers loaded, charging only one barrel may affect results.

All in all, these rifles are no target guns but are meant to be shot under field conditions. Depart from these in any way and you may expose yourself to unpleasant surprises.

Gentlemen, here we have a man who understands double rifles!

Very well written post Andre!

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