There is a slightly used Sabatti in the Hamburg Cabela's store. Calibur 9.3 x74R Does anyone have any idea or information as to the previous owner. Also is there anyone who lives near the Hamburg store? Please PM me or post if you have any info on this rifle. Thanks!!

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
There is a slightly used slightly used Sabatti in the Hamburg Cabela's store. Calibur 9.3 x74R Does anyone have any idea or information as to the previous owner. Also is there anyone who lives near the Hamburg store? Please PM me or post if you have any info on this rifle. Thanks!!

Larry Sellers

Those words alone make me shudder at the thought
it has been returned for a refund.

Have you phoned them up and asked them ?,

It seems from some of the posts on here that
the staff quite happily tell people the gun
was returned, shipped from another store etc.

Larry,
No idea on the rifle but I'm about 1.5 hrs away from Hamburg if something is specifically needed. Remember, they will ship to a store near you for $25. If you don't like it, don't have to buy and all you are out is the shipping. On a side note, I've found that the Hamburg store is generally not as willing to come down on prices as others may. I just bought a gun directly from the Dundee store as the manager was willing to work with me more than I know Hamburg would.
Steve

505 - I was told the gentleman returned the 9.3 and traded up to a 470 NE Sabatti. The sent me pics of the muzzles and they looked good. They will ship to me for $25.00 as Steve (below)said with a 30 day return policy. I can shoot the rifle with Hornady ammo that was used for regulation and return for full refund if not satisfied.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
There is a slightly used slightly used Sabatti in the Hamburg Cabela's store. Calibur 9.3 x74R Does anyone have any idea or information as to the previous owner. Also is there anyone who lives near the Hamburg store? Please PM me or post if you have any info on this rifle. Thanks!!

Larry Sellers

Those words alone make me shudder at the thought
it has been returned for a refund.

Have you phoned them up and asked them ?,

It seems from some of the posts on here that
the staff quite happily tell people the gun
was returned, shipped from another store etc.

Steve - thanks for the reply and will let you know if a visit to the store by you would be of help. They did come down a couple hundred bucks on the price along with the 30 day return policy for a refund if not satisfied. I have it on hold and will make a final in a week or so.

I feel if they will let me shoot it and if not satisfied refund the $$$, can't be a big risk at all. Will keep you posted. By the way, did you buy a Sabatti?

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:
Larry,
No idea on the rifle but I'm about 1.5 hrs away from Hamburg if something is specifically needed. Remember, they will ship to a store near you for $25. If you don't like it, don't have to buy and all you are out is the shipping. On a side note, I've found that the Hamburg store is generally not as willing to come down on prices as others may. I just bought a gun directly from the Dundee store as the manager was willing to work with me more than I know Hamburg would.
Steve

Larry

With that additional information, by the looks of things, I think you have everything in your favour.

I'd go for it.

Larry,

I second what 505G said. You have nothing to lose so go for it.

Now my only worry is if I buy it and post here on the Double Rifle forum as Judge G did with his recent Sabatti purchase, will I create a firestorm?

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member

Not if it shoots !


Apart from they should never have done what they did, IF you get a shooter for the price they are / have been selling them for, I don't have a problem and I don't think others do either.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
I feel if they will let me shoot it and if not satisfied refund the $$$, can't be a big risk at all. Will keep you posted. By the way, did you buy a Sabatti?

My Sabatti 450/400 I bought over 2 years ago and have no regrets whatsoever about. I recently bought AND returned one in 500 NE. Wouldn't shoot worth a darn. Wanted to see about another but Cabelas said I would have trouble returning another, so I said screw it and bought a Merkel 140-2 in 500 NE. Just picked that up on the way home from work tonight!

Larry,
My 450/400 was a returned gun and I have no regrets about buying it. From the way it shoots I have to say recoil or an angry wife was the reason it was returned. By the way, my 45/70 Sabatti shoots the same, sometimes better.

That RH target is a ripper, almost the perfect target. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
That RH target is a ripper, almost the perfect target. Good shooting.

If they had all shot that good they would be selling thousands of them today!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
That RH target is a ripper, almost the perfect target. Good shooting.

If they had all shot that good they would be selling thousands of them today!

That is an understatement !!!

They would be selling thousands,
no doubt about it.

Here's how I see the Sabatti problem:

Powers-that-be at Cabelas decided that there was a double rifle market in America that needed to be tapped. They made some negotiations with Sabatti and/or the importer and all of a sudden had double rifles for sale at 2/3 to 1/2 what Chapuis, Merkel, etc., were offering.

For reasons unknown, some genius in marketing at Sabatti or Cabelas decided that the gaudier the gun looked, the more attractive it would be to the buyer, so really garish laser engraving was added on the DG models and an abortion called OptiWood on some of the lesser calibers. IMHO, anyway.

Most Cabelas salesmen know very little about any firearms, much less the complications that can arise in double rifle regulation. Of course, the average "Joe" who visits Cabelas (and who never thought much of double rifles outside of Outdoor Life or Robert Rouark) all of a sudden had access (at an affordable price) to a real-live Elephant gun.

"Wow! Look at what I got, Leroy!" Then... "Damn! This thing kicks like hell! And the bullets cost $100 a box.... I'm taking it back and it don't shoot like my Model 710, either." or... "I bore-sighted it and it don't shoot good with my 4-12x 50mm objective Tasco".

Sure, there were some real problems... too many, but some were because of unreasonable expectations.

Put the salesman and the uninformed prospective purchaser together.... and Sabatti, a small company, at best... and bad things are almost bound to happen. Add on an importer (If that's who did the Dremel "repairs") more than remiss in warranty repair and you have a catastrophe in the making:

1. More demand than capacity to produce
2. Over-the-counter customers that are used to Savages and Remington factory rifles shooting an inch with about whatever you put in it, who don't reload (and therefore can't regulate their on rifle with velocity, etc.)
3. Salesmen who can't help/teach the customer that you can't clamp a double in a LeadSled and duplicate the "test" target.... and who buys whatever ammo is cheapest or available.
4. An importer, who, it seems, was trying to save money with a Dremel tool instead of a time-consuming and expensive wedge adjustment and,
5. A few informed folks, like those who post here, who, not unreasonably, believe that all double rifles should be Mercedes, instead of Kia's... and who have the vehicle of the internet to damn the perfect storm described in 1-4 above.

So... Here's my assessment. Cabelas didn't know what they were doing. They apparantly thought all rifles were Winchesters or Savages or Mossbergs and never really trained their salespeople as to what they were selling. (I know this because I've yet to talk to a salesperson there who knows diddly-squat about doubles.)

So, the demand for a $5-$6K DG double exploded. Perhaps, Sabatti couldn't keep up the quality standard needed to meet demand and something "slipped" in QA. Certainly, whomever decided to bore-out muzzles was trying to save money.

Anyway... I'd imagine everyone is partially right. Doubleriflejack and Mac, too. When Sabatti does its job, you get a pretty good Kia of a double... even though it's too duded-up for my tastes. When Sabatti tried to make 1000's as below mentioned, some bad stuff happened to include an uninformed public, poor salesmen and a bizarre Drimel fix... all exposed on the internet.

My take on this:

Sabatti is quite capable of making small quantities of "Kia" doubles but bit off more than it could chew. Cabelas stood up to their guarantees, but didn't know what the heck the Dremel fix was (or didn't care?) and the importer exacerbated the sad story by unethical fixes.

As I said, a perfect storm.

Still, some of us got really nice, cheap doubles and are happy with them. I just hope Sabatti can regroup and remember their hat size.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
That RH target is a ripper, almost the perfect target. Good shooting.

If they had all shot that good they would be selling thousands of them today!

That is an understatement !!!

They would be selling thousands,
no doubt about it.

Judge; I will take your thoughts a step further regarding the overall quality of the Sabbatis. Dremeled regulation notwithstanding, the gun's action, form, fit and function were (are) very good indeed. They've been examined down to the last nut by some credible gunsmiths and the workmanship was very good.

Like I said by analogy, Jorge. There ain't anything the matter with a Kia. We're on the same page, at least as to the five or six Sabatti's I've shot.

Well said Judge!

Judge

I certainly think you have factored in an aspect that we haven't discussed much, that being the sales people and lack of knowledge.

I think the Dremel fix came in a bit earlier in that it was done right at the beginning as soon as Cabelas ordered them unless that is what you were saying.

The problem with the Sabatti's is that the short cuts show up sometime. My 500 that I was so pleased with had the ribs pop loose after about 1000 rounds. Cabelas would not help and just sent me to EAA for the repairs. They have had the gun a long time and keep telling me they are going to send barrels back to factory for repair. This really worries me because how are they going to regulate the barrels without the receiver? I guess they will put them on another receiver to do that. Why wouldn't they send the whole gun back? Anyway as happy as I was with my 500 now I would not recomend them as I think there are just way too many issues with them. I will keep my gun because I don't think it will sell very easy. That is if I ever get it back. Some of these guns shoot really good and the price is going down but I think the jury is in and the verdict is guilty of poorly making a double.

Sam

srose

Interesting.

I wonder how many others have shot 1000 rounds through them if that is what it takes for the guns to show rib problems.

I know the 3 that had rib / barrel issues here
were used in competition and so they would have showed up pretty quickly.

505G,

Yes and how many doubles of any make have had a 1000 rounds through them? I shoot a lot and have quite a few doubles that I have put a lot of rounds thru them. Not many have had 1000 so this might be a test for any make double. I know of double shotguns popping ribs too after many many rounds. I guess it all depends on how well the solder or GLUE joints are between the barrels and ribs. The one thing I noticed with my Sabatti is that the contact surface of the top rib to the barrels was very very small. Just not much there to be joined. The top rib couldn't have been much thicker than a 32nd of an inch because I could pull it up with my fingernail.
Yes if Sabatti would have done it right to start with they wouldn't be able to make them fast enough but they didn't and now Cabelas has them sitting on the shelves. I wonder how many have been sold that might only get one box of ammo shot thru them and the customer is a happy double owner. Probably a lot!

Most of the people who use DR's in the BRGC would get a 1000 rounds though within a couple of years
due to the events that they can use them in and
the number of events.

But agree, not many shoot a lot of rounds.

It hadn't occurred to me that the 3 x Sabatti's that had rib / barrel separation problems here
would have been used for the BGRC comps, hence
why they maybe showed up quicker - and the lack of reports from the US of similar problems except for yours.

My 45/70 Sabatti has fired 1000 rounds or more and has had no problems so far.
I have loaded 800 rounds of 450/400 ammo and use it in the double and a Ruger #1. Since I don't shoot the Ruger very often the Sabatti has fired at least 400 rounds with no problems.

I think another problem that Cabelas may have created is a contract with a penalty clause for late delivery. If Sabatti would have taken the time necessary to work out the bugs they could have made a really nice KIA.

The engraving on the trigger guard and top lever is done with a laser, the receiver is engraved on a CNC mill with an abrasive coated ball mill.

Mac,
I don't think so. No matter how well they shoot there is only so much demand for a big bore double, or any double.
Now, if you took a double and attached multiple picatinny rails for lasers, flashlights, and bipods, added a grenade launcher and dipped the whole mess in camo paint, they probably could have sold many thousands of them.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
That RH target is a ripper, almost the perfect target. Good shooting.

If they had all shot that good they would be selling thousands of them today!

quote:

Originally posted by Idahoshooter:
Mac,
I don't think so. No matter how well they shoot there is only so much demand for a big bore double, or any double.
Now, if you took a double and attached multiple picatinny rails for lasers, flashlights, and bipods, added a grenade launcher and dipped the whole mess in camo paint, they probably could have sold many thousands of them.

Idaho, you may well be right on the ASUALT WEAPON CONERSION selling them, because the folks who buy that type are more interested in show that quality or accuracy!

Accuracy has no place in an assault weapon! The idea is t fill the airspace with bullets and hope it hits as many enemies as it can, both the ones you can see the unseen in light cover.

Aaahhh, but Big Bore double rifles have been used in war before !!!

WW I


Would have been fun firing a big bore from a trench !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Now my only worry is if I buy it and post here on the Double Rifle forum as Judge G did with his recent Sabatti purchase, will I create a firestorm?

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member

Larry, if the gun is a shooter, then this thread will probably collapse into a smoking ruin just like JudgeG's did after his gun was shown to shoot well.

And if it DOESN'T shoot...full-on Chernobyl, here we come!

Judge, you're right about the use of the phrase "Elephant Gun" by casual sportsmen. I can't count how many times I've had people refer to my doubles and big bores as "Elephant Guns"...funny :-)

I was shooting my .458 Win Mag one day and someone asked me if it was an elephant rifle, I pointed at my 7x57 and said "that caliber has probably killed as many".

The other side of the Sabatti coin to me is: there are the ones in Aus mentioned, those were not Cabelas guns, were they built in the same time period? There are other dealers around besides Cabelas. I wonder if the issues apply only to the guns built in a certain time period, or apply to the ones built and shipped in the last year. Granted , the new ones are not the Cabelas 3000.00 guns, likely 6-7 now, but, I wonder if they have cured their ills on the newest ones. Have the odds improved on getting a good one? There are a couple of shops up here with them, I wonder, whether what they have , is getting a bum rap due to the Cabelas batch. I doubt I'd run out and get one right now, but, maybe to order one, in another year or two, what sre the odds?.

I think they were built in the same time period.
Some have ground muzzles.

Timing for when they got here would
be about right as well.

"There are a couple of shops up here with them,"

209

How long have they had them ?

Are these new or post Cabelas not wanting exclusivity any more ?

It appears Cabelas has bent over backward trying to take care of dissatisfied Sabatti owners and that is a good thing.

At the same time Cabelas is the root of the problem because with their buying power they could of held EAA and Sabatti's feet to the fire and demanded better customer service and build quality.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Aaahhh, but Big Bore double rifles have been used in war before !!!

WW I


Would have been fun firing a big bore from a trench !!!

You are correct! In WWI the Germans were notorious for utilizing snipers in the most urban warfare. They would put snipers in the upper floors of buildings and the would ease up to a window, fire a shot, and move quickly behind the wall next to the window out of sight. The big bore double with full steel jackets would simply fire on the wall next to the window shooting through the stucco & lapp or wooden wall killing the sniper who thought he was safe behind the wall where the small caliber bullets couldn't penetrate.

This was not a common thing but it was used. In actuality the S/S double rifle, from the early flint lock, is the only hunting firearm that started life as a HUNTING rifle, all others were designed originally for warfare!

The Bolt action rifles we think of as hunting firearms today are only war weapons pressed into the hunting fields, but are still basically war weapons.

......................................................................

I thought and have read that they also used these big bores to knock down the metal plates that snipers hid behind.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
I thought and have read that they also used these big bores to knock down the metal plates that snipers hid behind.

That as well!

I can't say, as to how long the dealers up here have had what they show for stock. Probably all came into N. America at about the same time period, thru the the same distributor, I expect.
I think, the first I noticed of them, was around 5 yrs ago. May still be drawing stock from the same batch , from the same distributor, anyway.

That is a long time to be holding stock.
A very long time.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Aaahhh, but Big Bore double rifles have been used in war before !!!

WW I


Would have been fun firing a big bore from a trench !!!

You are correct! In WWI the Germans were notorious for utilizing snipers in the most urban warfare. They would put snipers in the upper floors of buildings and the would ease up to a window, fire a shot, and move quickly behind the wall next to the window out of sight. The big bore double with full steel jackets would simply fire on the wall next to the window shooting through the stucco & lapp or wooden wall killing the sniper who thought he was safe behind the wall where the small caliber bullets couldn't penetrate.

This was not a common thing but it was used. In actuality the S/S double rifle, from the early flint lock, is the only hunting firearm that started life as a HUNTING rifle, all others were designed originally for warfare!

The Bolt action rifles we think of as hunting firearms today are only war weapons pressed into the hunting fields, but are still basically war weapons.

......................................................................

Also, Baron Bror Blixen Finnecke mentions in his book "Letters from Africa" how a friend of him used a H&H .465 N.E. Royal in the Western trench war and had one confirmed down shooting of a German Biplane