Let me first say I like Kreighoff weapons. I know I will take heat for this but I like most german weapons over the brits. Last week I saw Kreighoff had a booth at HSC. I walked over and looked at the guns and I had to ask the salesman why hasn't kreighoff put ejectors in their double guns yet? His answer was that ejectors are the most likely thing to go wrong on a double rifle and I don't need them. I couldn't believe a german could look me in the eye and tell me he can't make something better and stronger than everyone else because he decided I don't need them anyway. He is standing next to their new Semprio rifle, which is one of the most unique firearm mechanisms I have seen in years, and he wants me to think they can't make ejectors that work flawlessly? What are they thinking? What is the real reason they don't do it? Is it a fiscal issue that they think their margins won't be met if they have to restructure their pricing? Does anyone have a better answer than the lamest gun salesman I ever met in Houston?

Much Thanks,

Ben

Well, George Hoenig doesnt use them on his doubles, single triggers either. When I was at his house a few years ago interviewing him he said that when he worked at Pachmayer much of his time was spent fixing ejectors and single triggers. So, when he designed his own rotary action double, he went with extractors and double triggers to avoid any problems.

If you know George is and his work then you know he has thought out everything and also is capable of building anything. I would say his opinion is worthwhile. Others have other opinions I am sure but it just goes to show Kreighoff aint unique...

by the way, George is from Hungary but spent his formative machining years in Germany before coming to the US, so maybe it is a German thing...

I can't speak for them, but I can tell you that if they added ejectors, the rifle would have to cost more. Ejectors aren't necessarily problematic, but they do require more skill (in timing them correctly) than an extractor.

To put that in perspective, the gunamkers at HEYM tell me they have as many man-hours in the ejectors as they do in fitting and finishing all the small parts in the action.

We're agnostic on the issue... if you want extractors, you can have extractors... if you want ejectors, you can have ejectors.

I've never sold a HEYM with extractors, and in 6-years, I've never had to repair or re-time ejectors.

Are there more moving parts in ejectors than extractors? You bet, but even if an ejector fails (regardless of who made it), they still function like extractors.

+1

i think the sales guy were trying to do his job by selling a product, even if it couldent meet your demands of what you wanted in a double.

New guy said it the best, if your ejectors break you have extractors.

yes ejectors are a bastard to fit but it is not that much of a problem, i think it has to do with what you usually work on and if you dont get to do them as much then it might be a problem.

i do them on all my guns, even the C-class guns they come as standard, because it is a lot more fun for me to pull a few springs to give my clients a extractor gun, than to invent the wheel over again to make a few ejector guns

i am not sure of the cocking system of the K-guns, that might be the thing that the cocking system is transform to an ejector.

best i could do with this

peter

I'm sorry. but K guns with that ridiculous cocking gizmo and no extractors just can't compete with Heym or Merkel. Oh did I mention my "Guido with a dremel" regulated Sabbati that shoots 1" or less groups at 50 yards has impeccably timed ejectors? Sorry couldn't resist!

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
i am not sure of the cocking system of the K-guns, that might be the thing that the cocking system is transform to an ejector.

God forbid that would give them an excuse to go to a traditional tang safety and get rid of their "improvement".......

Brett

…imho, the k dg cocking/extraction system is quite similar – if not identical - to the system k uses for its ss rifles (hubertus), the latter of which appears to be a variation of the “jaeger” system used by merkel (k-1) and blaser (k-95 and dg’s)…

…i would venture to guess that this is a cost issue, tho k would argue this is a safety issue…and i would also venture to guess that the k modified jaeger system precludes cartridge ejection...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

I'm sorry. but K guns with that ridiculous cocking gizmo and no extractors just can't compete with Heym or Merkel.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:

i am not sure of the cocking system of the K-guns, that might be the thing that the cocking system is transform to an ejector.

peter

Peter I think you have hit the nail square on the head with the above phrase!
IMO, the action to barrel connection would have to be completely re-designed to include ejectors on the K-gun. If you take the barrels off a K-gun and look closely at the joining of barrel set to action, it doesn't seem conducive to installing ejectors easily, and would probably not be cost effective! The cost of re-design is enormous in many cases.

I like ejectors but extractors are no draw back to me in a rapid re-load! I liked the old disengage switch Heym used to have on their doubles. With no effort at all you could change to extractors, or back to ejectors!

quote:

Are there more moving parts in ejectors than extractors? You bet, but even if an ejector fails (regardless of who made it), they still function like extractors.

I think that if a guy was expecting the ping of brass ejecting while reloading and did not get it while in the middle of a bad situation he might be a tad befuddled as to what to do in those few seconds. It might sound Capstick-ish but it can happen.

It's an absurd excuse on their part. Both K guns and Blasers have that BS cocking device and both stick to that absurd excuse that ejectors fail. So what happens if the fail? they work like extractors. The Blaser is particualrly bad in that one must push that lever after every shot. No thanks. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
It's an absurd excuse on their part. Both K guns and Blasers have that BS cocking device and both stick to that absurd excuse that ejectors fail. So what happens if the fail? they work like extractors. The Blaser is particualrly bad in that one must push that lever after every shot. No thanks. jorge

jorge, the bold print in your post above is not quite true! You have to push the so-clled safety buttom every time the rifle is broken open, not after every shot! When the Blaser S-2 decocks the rifle if it is opened for any reason. The K-gun is different in that when you load the chambers and close the rifle, you have to push the button forward slightly, and release to un-cock the rifle for safe carry loaded. When you spot an animal and your stalk gets close you push the button to compress the toumbler springs. Now it is ready to fire! With the K-gun if you fire one or both barrels, and break the rifle to re-charge the chamber or chambers, the K-gun recocks it's self automaticlly. The Blasr S-2 can only be cocked with the button and the rifle is de-cocked if opened for any reason.

Dave Bush has both rifles, and he has had no problem with them "SO FAR" and I don't think he will with the K-gun, and I HOPE he doesn't find he has reason to regret the S-2!

You are correct Mr. Mac! I meant after every TWO shots . And I know abot the K gun being different. Believe me, I went back and forth between all these at DSC and settled on the VC. A good friend of mine in Dallas has a gorgeous Blaser in 470 and I've shot it quite a bit and I found that lever hard to work with and I would have problems with it for follow up shots. It is an unnessesary step in my humble opinion. At least the K gun gives you the option. Still the "no ejector" excuse of them breaking is a cop out. Cheers, jorge

Some people prefer extractors over ejectors. To argue that the K-gun is somehow inferior to the Merkel or Heym is just YOUR personal preference. I would put my K-gun up against either a Merkel or a Heym.

Dave, please don't misunderstand, I realize there is a choice between extractors and ejectors and both of your guns are fantastic pieces of engineering, no doubt about that, but for Krieghoff to say they don't build ejectors because they fail is in my opinion an attempt to obfuscate the fact both their mechanism and Blaser's preclude the installation of ejectors. Also, I think the cocking devices are an extra step that I would not want to have to do, especially in the case of the Blaser. If I came across as disparaging either gun it was not my intention. I just don't care for the device and much prefer a Heym and for that matter a VC over all of the aforementioned. jorge

There have been many discussions over the years, on this forum, about the choice between extractors and ejectors (forget about Kreighoff for the moment). This was back in the halcyon Ray Atkinson days! The consensus, as I recollect, was in favor of extractors, less to go wrong, noise etc. etc. So, the K gun salesman was probably quite correct when he said what he said, in that many share that belief. Now there may, in fact, be an engineering reason why K guns do not have ejectors, but that does not nullify what the salesman said! I have three SxS double rifles, none of them have ejectors, one of them happens to be a K gun, but when I bought it, I did not think: "Well I really want ejectors but I will have to put up with extractors"! I bought it because it was the caliber I wanted (500/416) AND it had extractors!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
There have been many discussions over the years, on this forum, about the choice between extractors and ejectors (forget about Kreighoff for the moment). This was back in the halcyon Ray Atkinson days! The consensus, as I recollect, was in favor of extractors, less to go wrong, noise etc. etc. So, the K gun salesman was probably quite correct when he said what he said, in that many share that belief. Now there may, in fact, be an engineering reason why K guns do not have ejectors, but that does not nullify what the salesman said! I have three SxS double rifles, none of them have ejectors, one of them happens to be a K gun, but when I bought it, I did not think: "Well I really want ejectors but I will have to put up with extractors"! I bought it because it was the caliber I wanted (500/416) AND it had extractors!
Peter.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
You are correct Mr. Mac! I meant after every TWO shots . And I know abot the K gun being different. Believe me, I went back and forth between all these at DSC and settled on the VC. A good friend of mine in Dallas has a gorgeous Blaser in 470 and I've shot it quite a bit and I found that lever hard to work with and I would have problems with it for follow up shots. It is an unnessesary step in my humble opinion. At least the K gun gives you the option. Still the "no ejector" excuse of them breaking is a cop out. Cheers, jorge

I understand your concern with the de-cocking thing being so had to work, but in the case of follow-up shots the K-gun works just like the Merkel or Heym. Once the springs are cocked, and the rifle is fired or opened for any reason the rifle is ready to fire as soon as it's closed. It doesn't have to be re-cocked with the switch, it re-cocks it's self! That is the major difference between the Blaser S-2 and the K-gun, the Blaser must be manually re-cocked if opened for any reason!

I know what you are saying about the salesman's take on the reliability of the ejectors, as an excuse for not having them on the K-gun! You know, however, that the more moving parts the more chance of a malfunction, but I have a Westley Richards 500/450#1 express rifle that was sold out of the London store in 1892 that is a hammerless and has selective ejectors, and believe it or not, facility for mounting a scope sight on the left barrel. The ejectors work flawlessly, and so much for the idea that double rifles were only made for scope use in later years.

There are some drawbacks to ejectors as there are to any feature that is above the basic double rifle! One such draw-back is the rifle has to cock the ejector hammers on closing making the rifle a little more difficult to close silently, and requiring more pressure. The extractor rifle closes free of compressing the ejector springs, and the making of the attendant "CLICKS" cocking the ejector tumblers.
The harder to close, and the clicks of cocking the ejectors along with the "PING" of the empties being ejected is what the old market Ivory hunters objected to. The thought was that the noise pin-pointed them to the ESKARIs. Today there are few who want to shoot more than one elephant at a time so those concerns are a moot point IMO!

I have double rifle with, and without selective ejectors, and I seem to operate both quite well enough, and I do prefer ejectors especially on my lighter caliber doubles. That is I simply like any double rifle better than a bolt rifle for hunting, and I will operate them with what ever they come with! I'm far more suspicious of single triggers on a double than ejector vs. eltractors. I have one double rifle with a single non-selective trigger, but I am not using it because it needs re-regulating, but if not for that it would be strictly Hog, deer, elk, and moose rifle because of the trigger, and being an O/U! The Blaser S-2 I couldn't deal with at all!
The K-guns shoot very well, but they simply do not fit me and would be a total re-stock proposition for me, otherwise I could live with one!

In the end it is every man's choice what he shoots, and that is the way it should be! As Mark Sullivan often says, "They have the right to choose the way they want to die!"

I have owned a K-gun as well as most modern doubles. I like ejectors, but could live without them. That K-gun "cocking piece"/safety is easy to get used and, unless one is very experienced with a DR, could save someone's arse by eliminating an accidental ooops. I forget the PH's name I was talking to at DSC about 3-4 years ago and he carried a K-gun in 500 NE (Van Dermerver..SP!!??...sorry).....loved the gun and wished all of his double clients had K-guns due to the cocking piece. I find them easy to operate.

They are also accurate. Forend could use a little sandpaper and rasp to smooth out the lines, but that's my opinion and doesn't affect the guns performance which is great.

I'd hunt with one any day.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

John Taylor did not like nor use ejectors so I just go with that. I don't like all my expensive brass to be thrown on the ground either.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
John Taylor did not like nor use ejectors so I just go with that. I don't like all my expensive brass to be thrown on the ground either.

The only palce I hate ejectors is on the firing range where the brass is tossed back 15 feet, onto a concrete floor. In the field I simple break the rifle with the chambers aimed at my chest so the brass hits my shirt, and drops at my feet! If however the rifle is to be reloaded in the face of a buffalo charge then BRASS BE DAMNED, let it go where it wants!

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I have owned a K-gun as well as most modern doubles. I like ejectors, but could live without them. That K-gun "cocking piece"/safety is easy to get used and, unless one is very experienced with a DR, could save someone's arse by eliminating an accidental ooops. I forget the PH's name I was talking to at DSC about 3-4 years ago and he carried a K-gun in 500 NE (Van Dermerver..SP!!??...sorry).....loved the gun and wished all of his double clients had K-guns due to the cocking piece. I find them easy to operate.

They are also accurate. Forend could use a little sandpaper and rasp to smooth out the lines, but that's my opinion and doesn't affect the guns performance which is great.

I'd hunt with one any day.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

A different PH I hunted with also had a K 500NE, he had the same thoughts, As do I. Love my K gun.

With very limited personal experience with the K gun, I cannot offer much. As far as the extractor/ejector option, I prefer extractors hands down for dangerous game, especially elephant herds. I like the silent reload and don't find one faster than the other once practiced. 90% of the time, plus, one does not need a tactical speed reload anyway. But it is an interesting discussion.

Extractors for me to boot. While I have nothing against ejectors, I just do not find that they offer a material advantage. Extractors are quieter, generally easier to open since you are not having to cock the ejectors and can be reloaded every bit as quick as ejector guns with a little practice.

quote:

every bit as quick as ejector guns with a little practice

Do you mean almost as fast? It is physically impossible to be as fast as ejectors.

Ol' Ray Atkinson used to argue that extractors were just as fast. He finally had to admit that isn't true.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

every bit as quick as ejector guns with a little practice

Do you mean almost as fast? It is physically impossible to be as fast as ejectors.

Ol' Ray Atkinson used to argue that extractors were just as fast. He finally had to admit that isn't true.

I've never hunted elephant, but I'm definitely just as fast if not faster with extractors than ejectors, and I prefer extractor guns. The ease of opening and closing of extractor guns are my preference. I may order a new DR this month, is so, it will have extractors only. Again, it comes down to personal preference. Mike

Nice guns as long as its not a double rifle.

guys

please remember, that you can allways remove the springs of an ejector to get an extractor gun, but not the other way around.
i am with will on this, there is no way you can be as fast with extractors as you can be with ejectors, if this were true most phesant guns would be without this option
weather you would need ejectors in mordern day DG hunting, i dont have enough expirence to say, but i do prefere fast over not so fast if given the choice

othervice the K-gun is as good as any C-class box-lock coming from europe, i think it is a matter of style and which canoepaddle rocks your boat

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Extractors for me to boot. While I have nothing against ejectors, I just do not find that they offer a material advantage. Extractors are quieter, generally easier to open since you are not having to cock the ejectors and can be reloaded every bit as quick as ejector guns with a little practice.

Mike I think you may have that backwards! I believe the ejectors are cocked on closing, while the tumblers are cocked on opening! The hammers in the ejectors are released to hit the ejector rods on opening if the rifle has been fired.

I don’t find extractors a real disadvantage in the speed of re-loading of a double, and I have both types. I think recoil has a greater impact on the speed of re-loading of a double rifle for shots three and four and subsequent re-loads. I believe, also, the only place where ejectors are a disadvantage in the hunting fields is when hunting Elephant in tight cover, for the same reasons Taylor gave, pin pointing your position to the Askaris because of the metallic “ping” of the empties being tossed after the shot.

Kool-aid anyone?

quote:

C-class

peterdk, can please educate me on this term? Are there fairly standard definitions of what constitutes C, B and presumably A class?
Not that I am class conscious or anything!
Thanks, Peter.

peter i will give it a try, just cut me some slack as it is allmost midnight here, and i am not sure all the lights are on

Quick rundown starting with the C

C-class:
Boxlock action, monoblock barrels (on elderly English that would be shoe lumps) plain wood(yes it can be beautyfull, but that is the tricks of the trade) engraving usually limited or machined made, or poorly executed.
C-class is also called colonial grade, because they were sold a lot to people, going out in the world.
a working double so to speak, a lot of the new guns we discuss here are generally C-class guns, that dont mean that they are cheap just they are made to the same tune.

B-class:
Very mixed up class, as the high end boxlocks are in here as well as the lowend sidelocks can be found here as well.
generally speaking and this one is hard.
actions are both fine boxlocks and sidelocks, the boxlocks are almost all with a refined third bite and struck up very nicely.
sidelocks are also found here, but it is not high end sidelocks(possibly the fitting of the lock plate to action etc.) but still very good work.
Barrels can be highly struck up monoblocks, shoelumps and a few chopperlumps can find its way down here. main thing here is the surface of the barrels are a lot better, and the fit of barrels to action is also a lot better.
engraving is hand done and depending of the clients wishes and wallet can be quite extensive.
wood is beautyfull and without nots, color is of the darker type without staining
most of these guns comes with ejectors, cases are made proper, and the snap caps and oilbottles are there included in the price.

A-class:
Sidelocks all but one, and that is the WR droplock.
Chopperlump barrels.
Full cover hand cut engraving by named engravers
wood is XXXX
any whish the client would want will be there(off course at a price)

this is a pretty rough idea but at this hour in the day, it is the best you can get from me, i will see if i can reweiw it tommorow and add a bit.


best regards

peter

P.S gods willing and we meet up in africa later this year, i should hopefully be able to show you the difference on a few of my guns, as you will proberly be one of teh first to see and shoot the B and A class prototypes from my hand.

Oh, so you want me to compare your A and B class prototypes against my C class Krieghoff?!!!!
Thanks for the explanation.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Oh, so you want me to compare your A and B class prototypes against my C class Krieghoff?!!!!
Thanks for the explanation.
Peter.

peter

no i wouldnt be that much of a smart ass, but it is easyer to show you where we use less time on an action when it is a B-Class as compared to an A-class, since both of these are sidelocks in my configuration, it is a lot easyer for me to show you there.

best

peter

quote:

New guy said it the best, if your ejectors break you have extractors.

Not always! As you are well aware, the extractors on an ejector gun are bifricated unlike the solid one piece design of a true extractor gun.

I have a pair of German made "ejector" guns. One of the guns suffered a broken extractor (L. side, mid way up the main shaft) and when I opened the gun, it went flying out with the spent hull and was never found...Had this been the case with a DR, it would have rendered the left barrel inoperable.

So, there are plusses and minuses to either system.

I for one will take the chance on the ejector gun as the benefits far outweigh the risks, IMHO.


JW

quote:

I for one will take the chance on the ejector gun

Oooooh, those are fightin' words around here.

Actually I figger that a missing ejector really doesn't make that one barrel inoperable, rather just a tad slower to reload! Wouldn't that be true?

(Unless maybe the case bulged out in the space left by the ejector, which probably wouldn't happen.)

I don't know, but I'll bet you'd likely bulge the case and most likely stick it in the chamber pretty good!

I don't want to find out - that's for sure!

Never an issue with an extractor gun though!

When I ordered my Krieghoff Teck O/U .458 Winchester Magnum double rifle in 1970, I specified ejectors. When it arrived (with its interchangeable barrel set in .375 H&H), the .458 barrels worked perfectly, but the .375 barrels were reluctant to extract, let alone eject. On my way to Africa, I stopped off in Germany and dropped the rifle off with Krieghoff in Neu Ulm. Among the requests was one to supply spare ejectors to both sets of barrels. I have never used the spare ejectors to this date.

The Krieghoff Teck/Ulm system uses coil springs for its ejectors. If you prefer extractors, removing the coil springs is something which can be done in virtually less time than it takes to describe it. I used my rifle to kill an old elephant who was accompanied by a very belligerant askari, but neither the discharge of the rifle, nor the sound made by the ejectors allowed him to locate the source of his companion's distress.

I personally like ejectors, but I can see the argument for extractors as well. I prefer a double rifle like mine, which gives me a choice.

Here's the rifle and the elephant: