How much difference is there between a Win M70 Safari Express 458 Win Mag (500 grain bullet @ 2,150 fps) and a standard size 470 Nitro Express (500 grn @ 2,150 fps) in let's say a Merkel double rifle.

I have never shot a double rifle, but I have shot my M70 with 500 grain bullets at 2,150 fps. Will the recoil be similar? (assuming proper fit).

Would love to hear from people who have shot both. By the way, my M70 is usually topped with a Leupold VXIII 1.5-5x.

Thanks!

Tim

I have owned 2 458's and had a 458 as a work gun[I shot it a lot as the ammo was "free". I have a 450 No2 double and have shot around 10 470 doubles. I find the doubled a little easier on your shoulder. They are usually a little heavier, operate at lower pressure [less muzzle jet effect] and the double is superior egronomically.

For DG I much prefer the double.

Yeah, I think they are pretty comparable. The 470 is probably a little more pleasent for the reasons NE450No2 stated as well as the fact that you are shooting a DR rather then a bolt gun.

I have both, and I'd say the 470NE Merkel double rifle is easier on your shoulder,(mine has a Kick-Eese recoil pad, and the double rifle, and the 470NE cartridge are head and shoulders above the bolt action 458 Win Mag IMO!

If they are the same weight and have equally good fit the recoil should be the same.

465H&H

I agree with 456 H&H. Any difference in felt recoil between a 470 NE and a .458 win mag is a result of how the stock fits you.

Having shot both the Merkel 470 + Ruger RSM 458,I can't tell any appreciable difference.

I have personally shot both rifles. The Merkle 470 is noticably more. First off the Merkle 470 weighs 9.75 to 10lbs and the M70 weighs approx. 8.5 to 9 lbs (plus for the 470). The 470 burns approximately 35 MORE grains of powder (big plus for the 458). The stock design of the M70 is a straight stock compared to the 470 (another big plus for the 458 with felt recoil). Using faster burning powders in the 458 compared to slower burning powders MOSTLY used by reloaders (unless you are using R-15 with filler) will have less felt recoil in the 458. It adds up to less felt recoil. Plug in all of these numbers and calculate recoil and it's probably going to be 10-15 lbs of recoil difference, and you can feel 10-15 lbs of recoil difference. That's not counting the straight stock design of the M70. For what it's worth, I shoot big bores on a weekly to bi-weekly basis so I am around recoil quite-a-bit, you just have to embrace it. Shoot light loads and work up, have FUN. Dirk

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
For what it's worth, I shoot big bores on a weekly to bi-weekly basis so I am around recoil quite-a-bit, you just have to embrace it.

Exactly . . . getting used to recoil is about 2/3 mental. Convincing yourself that it can be mastered.

so, i'll be voice of reason...

most 470s have more felt recoil than most 458 winmags, with a 500gr bullet at 2150.. lots of reasons. In fact, in a 10# gun, a 470 mbogo or AR, at 2150, is a TAP. Mike and I saw this with my 470 AR at the range.. the AR is far less punishing to shoot.


here's why... sure, a fitted double will have less felt recoil than a box stock 458 win, and will probably even weigh more, but that's the exception (more used rifles, merkels, heyms, etc being sold than searcies)


the OFF the SHELF 470 or 458 won't fit you properly, odds on, as the shelf 470 is a merkel/heym/kreighoff, and the 458 is a 13.5 to 14.5 LOP mostly to the shorter end.

double rifle generally has lots of drop, which regardless of weight, increases FELT recoil (now, if anyone would like to disagree, recall that the drop creates an effectively longer-by-vertue-of-being-bent lever and a shorter towerds you fulcurm, in that the horizonal distance to the pad is shorter in a drop rifle than an undropped rifle, with the SAME lengh of pull. LOP is measured from the trigger perpendicular from the pad, NOT the bore.

bolt guns, with the exception of custom jobs and the ruger RSM, weigh too little. Take the winchester safari express.. little drop, short LOP, and it only weighs 9# .. the remington has a 14" lop, and weighs 9#, RSMs generally run 10-10.5#, which is about the weight of a normal 470

WEIGHT is the send largest factor in recoil


only when the rifle fits you equally well can you actually directly compare the rifles. Tony has an advantage over me, most rifles will fit him, out of the box, than me (nearly none)

So,

firstly double rifles have more drop. aabe, that means FELT recoil

secondly most bolt guns are too light, with the ruger being the exception, and the CZ following closely behind. this increases felt recoil

thirdly, odds on, if you have shot 10 double rifles, only one was made for you, and the rest aren't fitted to you. In fact, most guns don't fit the majority of the people that pull the trigger. why? the OWNER of the rifle has it fitted to him, everyone shoots to his fitting.

fourthly, FELT recoil is mental, not physical.. 60# of recoil, straight into the shoulder, not whacking your cheek is FAR more pleasant than 55 in a high drop stock, that rolls the grip DOWN and hits you on an ever reducing pad size while arching downwards.


So, while shooting a double is more pleasing, even with a perfectly fitting double, compared to a perfectly fitting bolt gun, felt recoil is more.

this becomes especially brutal and apparant in the 7000lb-ft energy rounds.. the 550 express is like being punched by bully... the 577 nitro is like getting hit by mike tyson...

jeffe

quote:

with a 550gr bullet at 2150

Jeffe... I think you mean 500 unless you are talking about a different caliber or non standard bullet.

bulldog,
thanks, i cleared that up, ...
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Norman Conquest:
Having shot both the Merkel 470 + Ruger RSM 458,I can't tell any appreciable difference.

Norman Conquest, The two examples you offer wouldn't show much difference in the recoil, simply because both rifles weigh almost exactly the same! The Ruger RSMs are exceptionally heavy chambered for 458 WM, Could that be why they recoil the same? Most bolt action 458 rifles don't weigh as much as the Ruger RSM,or most 470NE doubles. So, most 470 doubles, weighing more than most 458 WM bolt rifles, will have less felt recoil, as long as both fit well.

I own both a Merkel double in .470 NE and a Winchester M70 Safari Express in .458 WM (bored to .458 Lott). The felt recoil in the .470 is much greater than the WM but equal to the Lott. And I do mean much greater. The Winchester with WM ammo is actually quite comfortable while the Lott and .470 while not uncomfortable, will certainly make you pay attention.

Ken Moody

What velocity are you getting out of the 458wm ammo? 100fps of velocity will make a difference. Factory 458wm ammo varies from pretty slow to very fast (for the 458wm). Or in other words from well below typical 470 velocity to quite a bit faster.

What velocity are you getting from you 470 loads too?

Handloading a 458wm beyond typical 470 velocities, while staying under max loads, is no problem, btw.

JPK

With all other things being somewhat equal (gun & bullet weight with comparable velocity) I'm another vote for very similar felt recoil.

I agree with Jeffe to a point that the more drop on many doubles will help you feel the recoil a little better on some guns.

Just hurry up and get one Tim so Mark and I can play with it.

Kyler

quote:

Reply

It's about like the question "how long is a Chinaman??"

I shoot them both and I really think felt recoil in the 458 is a bit more sharp than the 470.

It seems to me that the design of the stock and weight make all the difference in the world. I know guys that have sold their Kreighoffs in 470...simply couldn't handle them...sharp comb, and lighter weight...same goes for the Merkles...

A good English 470 is a dream to shoot...my vote is for the 470...hence the HANDLE!!

Try Colt Sauer 'Grand African' with lovely bubinga wood and you might just change your mind. Match point goes to the .458 Winnie.