Just got my notice for the ACGG show in Reno and this is the topic of the first seminar, to be presented Monday January 29 from 8AM to 12PM by authority Jack Rowe. http://www.acgg.org/

i seriously doubt ANYONE will attend !

the guild members have NO INTEREST in double rifles or double shotguns.... as i proved at the 2003 exhibit.

we introduced kits to build double rifles and double shotguns that cost $1,200.00 an affordable price to get into this lucrative market.

we sold nine kits but NOT A ONE to the members ! all were bought by amatuer gunsmiths and graduates of gunsmithing schools. the members didn't even bother to look at our 3 table display.

the members do not want to recognize that double guns and rifles are the hottest growing segment in the firearms industry. they prefer to live in the past and not be confused by the facts and realities of modern times .
they like to screw barrels into bolt actions and then complain that they can't make any money !!

this is a sad commentary ..... but an absolutely true one.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Just got my notice for the ACGG show in Reno and this is the topic of the first seminar, to be presented Monday January 29 from 8AM to 12PM by authority Jack Rowe. http://www.acgg.org/

Even though the ACGG is not interested in double rifles, I would like to attend that seminar. However, I don't know the person giveing the seminar. It would be interesting to see if he really does know evrything you want to know about double rifles, but were afraid to ask! You wouldn't believe the things that come out of the mouths of some well known custom gun builders in regard to double rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:

we introduced kits to build double rifles and double shotguns that cost $1,200.00 an affordable price to get into this lucrative market....

...we sold nine kits but NOT A ONE to the members ! all were bought by amatuer gunsmiths and graduates of gunsmithing schools. the members didn't even bother to look at our 3 table display.

the members do not want to recognize that double guns and rifles are the hottest growing segment in the firearms industry. they prefer to live in the past and not be confused by the facts and realities of modern times .
they like to screw barrels into bolt actions and then complain that they can't make any money !!

Now there is an enlightened attitude. You offer a product that your targeted customers do not want. Ergo, they are morons.

Have you considered a career as a New York Senator?

Glenn

hst - you are absolutely right - they are morons. you have to be an associate member of the acgg to verify that, but after a year, anyone would agree with you.

reading their comments in their newsletter makes you cringe.
would you like to be required to buy the wood for your rifle from the guy who was going to put it together ? that was a hot topic of discussion 3 yrs ago

all they do is bitch about is not being able to make money in their business..... but they won't look at new ways to do it.

as for them being true gunmakers - well they will never hold a candle to the old world craftsmen who can really --MAKE -- a rifle, not just assemble it from bought out parts.

if this is the best america can produce we are in sad shape.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
hst
as for them being true gunmakers - well they will never hold a candle to the old world craftsmen who can really --MAKE -- a rifle, not just assemble it from bought out parts.

if this is the best america can produce we are in sad shape.

Tom, I don't think I'd go quite that far,because some of those guys can do some real nice work! I do agree, however, that some who build, or as you say compile, some beautiful rifles, still do not understand double rifles, but nobody is an expert at everything.

I must say here, however, that the time needed to build a quality double rifle, would negate the private, one man shop of makeing much profit from the limited output, of a NO NAME double rifle, even if it were top of the line, in quality. Without a name like Holland & Holland, or the like, people will not pay thousands of dollars for them.Especially when they can buy a solid working double rifle like a Merkel, for under $10K. If a guy simply wants to build a double rifle for himself, or for a friend, and is not especially intersted in profit, your kits are a real find. I've built several doubles from scratch on A&D actions, but in no way did I make money on them when sold or traded!

The only problem I have encountered with ACGG smiths is unjustified arrogance, and being dismissed like a child in conversations with them! Conversations on a subject where I knew more about it than they did. Understand, that doesn't mean all the members are that way, but just the few, I've come in contact with. No group is all bad, but there seems to be a great assesment of self worth in that particular group! Addmittedly, some well deserved!

hst tell me something about Jack Rowe! Is he a gun writer, builder of double rifles, DBL RFL a collector, or what? The name sounds familiar, but I simply can't place it. It could be my 70 yr old mind is simply failing to hold it's load!

Jack Rowe apprenticed at S. Wright & Son Birmingham from 1946-1951. He was a gunmaker for Thomas Turner, Berkshire, then had his own shop in Bracknell before emigrating to the USA in 1982. He taught the NRA course on repairing English & European double guns at Murray State College last June. Here is a picture of him at the 2004 Vintage Cup SxS Championship:



Perhaps some of the experts on this forum would be better suited to conduct the seminar.

Tommo577,
Do you have any more of those kits?
What was in the kit?
John

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Perhaps some of the experts on this forum would be better suited to conduct the seminar.

Thank you for your info on Mr Rowe Fla3006 ,I would now even more like to attend the seminar, but I don't think the sarcasm of your last sentence was needed!

As far as the EXPERTS on this forum,are concerned, there are some, be assured, and I suspect Mr. Rowe would spot them in a heartbeat!

re: mr rowe

what qualifies him as an expert on doubles ?

has he actually built any ? or just worked in the shops.

does he know any more than nick makinson or kirk merrington - probably the best english trained barrel maker in usa. or leonard bull at trinidad - who has been there for eternity, not 0ne semester .

i will be surprised if any guild members show up as i said previously. they will be too busy giving each other awards and complaining how they can't make any money.....
they cannot be gone too soon !

My notice was intended for those who may wish to learn more. Please don't anyone feel threatened.

tomo

I would be interested to know more about your kits. What was in them and what did they do?

My two dealings with Rowe both ended in accrimony. I think, among other things, he is an arrogant jerk with a superior attitude. I would hate to be in the class and disagree with him.

He is knowledgable though. He does not know everything, despite what he will tell you.

I also agree that 90% of the so called master smiths are nothing more than parts changers with an ability to do one thing well.

DOUBLE RIFLE & DOUBLE SHOTGUN KITS

these kits are all boxlock ejector models with false sideplates for add'l engraving area.
i have one 20 ga size left and 4 12 ga .

the complete kit includes everything needed to assemble the gun. rifle cal's in stock are 45, 30, 7, 12 ga rifled and a 9,3 set coming in.
shotgun bbls 12, 16, 20 & 410

shotgun bbls and extra monoblocks , ejectors,as well as extra ejector forends ( recommended) are also available so you can add a second bbl set in either rifle or shotgun.

all the machining is done except when you install the bbls in the monoblock you have to cut the ejector space out of the bbls.

while they last we include a plain wood fitted stock set which also makes a pattern stock
you provide sights.

these work best for low pressure rounds
complete kit is about $1,200.00

we have a catalog & parts price list for $6.00

tom ondrus
crownpress
box 126
austinburg, oh
44010-0126

crownpress@alltel.net tel 814 774 5739

Jack Rowe is an English gun maker brought here to work at Champlin Arms and take care of the fine double shotguns and double rifles that pass through the gunshop. He made at least one best double shotgun, while in Enid, in the manner of the pre war artists in England. He worked with Champlins until a falling out with George. He was married to a Native American and lived in Enid, Oklahoma. I have sat at his bench for hours (in my youth) watching him work and recount stories from his experiences in England. I see him from time to time at the various expos. He often represents some of the named makers here in the USA. He is qualified to build and maintain most any double and then some.

quote:

kirk merrington

I thought Kirk's forte was double shotgun barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

kirk merrington

I thought Kirk's forte was double shotgun barrels?

Yes, he apprenticed as a barrel maker with Churchill's. By the time Kirk came along though, the British makers weren't making DR barrels anymore. Kirk is good with shotguns, but he is no finisher. He told me point blank that J. J. is a better DR guy. Kirk is a good guy.

Yeah, Jack Rowe is an opinionated guy, but he IS knowledgeable. He apprenticed under old guys that had their heyday during the golden era of the British trade. No, he doesn't know everything, but that isn't the way the British trade works. Kirk Merrington in Kerrville, TX apprenticed as a barrel maker, Paul Hodgins in Utah and David Trevallion in Maine apprenticed as stockmakers, etc. They're expert in their specialties, and perhaps competent in other areas of fine double gun work, but sometimes not.

Although rudimentary expertise in the double gun manufacturing industry once existed in the US, it died 60 years ago. Although I strongly agree that most high end US smiths are glorified parts changers and polishers, ACGG's failure to see value in cheap DR "kits" is no indictment of them at all. Sounds like maybe Jack's presentation is intended to spark interest in doing it right. Good on them.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Tom, do you have any pictures of finished DRs from these kits?

Hog Killer