Hi all, at first i had my heart set on a 470 NE,I shot one once and fell in love with it. but after talking to Retreever at the DSC show ,,well now its the 450 class. so some decisions need to be made.

The Gun would be used to hunt Buff and Elephant, and sadly this most likley will be a one time event, so buy the gun and practice for a year,hunt a few pigs doing my own reloading and after the hunt id have to sell.

As for me, im 45 weigh about 170lb. and just under 6' tall. the gun I have used on other hunts is a 375 Ackley Imp. and i dont find the recoil all that bad. I could use this gun but ,,well lets face it,,it aint no double! Nuff Said.

So the Choices are this, the 450 400 , 450 3 1/4 ,after talking to Mike, im afraid the cost of reloading the 450 #2 as impressive as it is makes it a poor choice for me.

From what i understand the 450 3 1/4 would give me and extra 1000 # of energy , but at what cost ? is the the recoil that much more , brass more expencive ,etc.

Just open for sugestions, Thanks in advance,
Markus

Markus:

IF you have your heart set on a double...and IF you want it to be a 458, then the 450 3.25" NE...in a new rifle...makes the most sense. A 450/400 3" is certainly adequate for buff and elephant...especially for buff...but a 458 will have, in my opinion, a more noticable impact than the 450/400 will. A 450/400 WILL have less recoil than a 450 3.25"......noticably less. That being said, I have both and do not find the 450 too bad...not fun from the bench, but fine from the sticks or offhand.
Hornady makes ammo for both and Heym, Searcy, Demas V/C, Krieghoff and a few others make doubles in one or both calibers.

Good luck...you can't go wrong with either caliber. I might suggest, however, that the 450/400 MIGHT be a touch more versitile if you use it much stateside...but that's just my opine.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Penetrater,

I had the same conumdrum, when I was looking for my last double. I started off with a 577--too much of a good thing. I bought a 470 next it is a fine rifle with plenty of punch.

I just ordered a double in a 450/400 regulated with hornady ammo. I have a very good friend that says it kills buffalo like lightning and is more than than enough for elephant. In his words" I would not be scared to shoot every elephant in africa with my 450/400".

I was sold with ammo costing $80 a box and recoil like my 375 ( my 470 regulated with federal $275 a box, ouch!!!). Now just a year wait!

If it is a one time go for buffalo and elephant, then I'd go with the 450/400!

Ed

Markus,

Another thing to consider is the resale value. The .470 IMO has a broader appeal, and will probably hold a higher resell.

That being said, it would be hard to beat a nice used heym. You should be able to sell it for just about what you paid for it.

Good luck on your search!

I had the opportunity to shoot Retreever's 450#2 and the recoil was not bad. I have not had the chance to shoot my 450 3 1/4 that I have now had for almost a month (waiting for the weather to improve a little before heading out to the range).
With Hornady committed to components for the 450/400 450 3 1/4, 470 and others there will be a good supply of components if you buy an existing rifle or if new the option of having the rifle regulated to factory loads.
The 450 3 1/4 is the Rigby cartridge that started it all... In the end it is a personal decesion the only advice I might offer is make sure the rifle fits well and have fun with the process!

I have owned 2 450 3 1/4's and 3 450-400 3 1/4's. Felt recoil is generally determined by the stock shape and fit. One 450 3 1/4 had less felt recoil because of the stock shape than the other. The better the fit the less felt recoil. At least that's my experience. Listen to Retreever, the 458's are generally the way to go, although I own a 450-400 3 1/4 presently and love it. Plan to shoot and practice a lot whatever you purchase.


Dutch

Every time that I read one of these discussions, it makes me hope again that one day Hornady will announce 450 #2 ammo and brass. At north of $100.00USD for twenty Bertram BRASS, it's a killer. Probably a vain hope but who was it that said "Hope springs eternal in the human breast"?

Ron...feel your pain. Passed on a couple of doubles before....450 #2 one of them, 475 #2 another for that reason. Brass is a BIATCH to find. Bullets, no worries, from Woodleigh thru Huntingtons.
It's a shame.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Well, I have a .450 #2 and I feed it, but I darned near have to come out of retirement to do so !1

Since you say you MUST sell after AFRICA then logic dictates buying a rifle that will get most,

if not ALL, of your hundred dollar bills back! My bet says that's caliber 470 NE. But if you were

keeping the rifle for a life time of local hunting after AFRICA I'd vote for a 450/400 caliber

rifle for sure! I'd try really hard to have it weighing as close to 10 pounds even as I could get.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Since you say you MUST sell after AFRICA then logic dictates buying a rifle that will get most,

if not ALL, of your hundred dollar bills back! My bet says that's caliber 470 NE. But if you were

keeping the rifle for a life time of local hunting after AFRICA I'd vote for a 450/400 caliber

rifle for sure! I'd try really hard to have it weighing as close to 10 pounds even as I could get.

What Big5 said!

Thanks for all of your input and advice !

I think later this year im going to try and go to Monty Kalogeras shooting school in TX. I met him at the dallas show and was inpressed with the fact i could shoot a few different guns and that would help with my decision allso.

Thanks again,
Markus

now back to putting all this tile down before my girl kills me .

quote:

Originally posted by Penetrater:
Thanks for all of your input and advice !

I think later this year im going to try and go to Monty Kalogeras shooting school in TX. I met him at the dallas show and was inpressed with the fact i could shoot a few different guns and that would help with my decision allso.

Thanks again,
Markus

now back to putting all this tile down before my girl kills me .

Having been to Monty's school, I can say it is well worth the trip. That man can shoot!

quote:

I think later this year im going to try and go to Monty Kalogeras shooting school in TX.

I think you'll find doing so valuable. Was there earlier this month with a few DRSS guys and spent a few hours shooting with Monty, Kevin Robertson, and Doug Turnbull. Monty has a nice set-up and knows what he's doing. Among others, he has a nice Heym .450/.400 for you to try.
------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I have a 450 No2 and a 450/400 3 1/4".

I have killed elephant and cape buff with both.

From what you stated in your first post, I think a 450/400 3" with scope in claw mounts would serve you best.

Plenty of power for the big stuff, and with low enough recoil to use on other smaller game like pigs, deer, black bear, brown bear, elk in timber, etc.

A trip to Monty's would be well worth the time and expense, both before and after you buy a double.

quote:

From what i understand the 450 3 1/4 would give me and extra 1000 # of energy , but at what cost ? is the the recoil that much more , brass more expencive ,etc.

Just open for sugestions, Thanks in advance,
Markus

Never shot an 450/400 but i own a 450 N.E. 3,25.

It shoots accurate and bullets and brass are easy to get.

I would take that cartridge again cause it is the mother of all N.E.-Cartridges developed by Rigby...

Monty is one of my law partner's brother in law -- I don't think that makes us related -- but I've seen (pictures at least) of his operation and want to go. Monty's a good guy by the way.

I'd get a .470. Resale value is a consideration. Availability of ammo is too -- I've heard (just rumor) that Hornady is going to be offering .470NE at $109 a box; That should fix Federal's wagon if it's true.

Harnaday is already offering 480gr softs and solids for the 450's and will be offering brass and loaded ammunition for the 450NE 3 1/4" shortly. I'd bet that it would be easy to find a 500gr load that shoots well too.

I'd opt for the 450NE 3 1/4". Less powder capacity so you can reload without concern regarding fillers. Better in the field ballistics than actual traditional 470 balistics. (Searcy regulates his rifles at velocities that vintage rifles never achieved.) Huge selection of bullets, some cheap for practice, some great for game, some both, including plain or gas checked cast lead, Hornaday 350's and 500's, Hawks, North Fork solids and Woodleighs to name but a few. Trimmer lighter rifles possible with the 450 case as opposed to the 500 case the 470 is based on.

JPK

450 NE 3 1/4 in a double. Relive the glory of the original Nitro Express, smokeless powder, that is, cartridge. Have over 200 rounds through mine since picking it up early last spring. Reduced loads of 5744 work well. No need for fillers using this powder as I have seen with other reduced loads. Presently 450 brass is hard to come by. Had used Jamison but have found some of the rims too thick, bertram but it cost more than I pay for a box of Hornady 450 loaded ammo. Hornady rep at SCI told me the brass should be available but I have not found it yet. As far as shooting it, I don't shoot off the bench but off hand, usually at 25 yards. You will find it very manageable. Rocks you back and you can shoot quite a few rounds of full loads as long as you focus on mounting and holding the rifle snuggly to your shoulder. I have a Searcy and it is very accurate. For redcued loads I use 500 grain hornady and their new 480 grain hornady. Shoot both woodleigh and hornady 480 grain in full loads. I bought a double because of nostalgia and the fact that I have two separate single shots when facing dangerous game.

Penetrator,

You say only one trip to Africa, only one Ele, and only one Buff.... and then sell the DR when you return.

Maybe you should consider a DR in 9.3x74R(w/QD scope). These can had for less than one-half (50%) of the cost of one of the 450's.

With the $$ you save you can add another Buff or actually keep the rifle when you come home.

If your heart screams 450...go for it, but don't be afraid to listen to your wallet

IMO, you would have to be nuts to hunt elephant with a 9.3x74. Will tried it found it inadequate. 450NE No2 killed one with it.

I'd look for a good deal on a second hand newer rifle in 375H&H or 450/400, 500/416, any .450" NE round, even 458wm. It will do what is desired without a lot of fuss or trouble and has already been discounted so you might get out whole.

If you luck into the right 458wm, you may get the deal of a life time, and can rechamber to 450NE 3 1/4" and maybe make a buff trophy fee on resale.

JPK

I have killed quite a bit of game with the 9,3x74R double rifle.

It has served as my plains game rifle on all of my Safaris.

A big factor in my using it in Africa is that I prefer to hunt with a double and in the fact that the 9,3 could take the place of my big bore double in case it became non-functional.

On my second trip I decided to test this theory and shot a very big cape buff [big in both body and horn] with a 286 Woodleigh Soft. The buff was down and dead in less than 40 yards.

I also shot a giraffe, 2 body shots, and he was down.

Baised on this I decided to shoot an elephant cow. This was in the SAVE where the cows are pretty "cheeky" as they say.

Now I did feel that the 9,3 was a little light as a charge stopper, unless the brain was struck, but I had no doubt that I would have enough penetration, and with the low recoil, and the fact that I can reload pretty fast I felt relatively safe while working in and out of the elephant herds to get a shot.

I knew if things got dicey I would have shoot straight, but that is true no matter what rifle you carry.

We found the right cow, and snuck into the herd and I shot her side brain at 5 yards. The 286gr Woodleigh solid went straight through.

There were several other elephants nearby, 2 of them within 10 yards.

After the shot they turned to go away from me and I quickly reloaded, all of this before the cow had hit the ground.

Would I hunt cape buff again with the 9,3x74R? Without hesitation.

Would I hunt elephants with it again?
Without hesitation, assuming I was hunting cows, which I will only shoot with a brain shot.

I do not think I would want to body shoot an elephant with a 9,3, or a 375 for that matter.

It is light for elephants, as is the 375 H&H.

For all practicle purposes I consider the 375 H&H and the 9,3 equal in the field.

So for an experienced hunter, that is a good shot, and cool under pressure, it will do the job.

However I did feel "better gunned" when I used a 450/400, or a 450 No2.

Let me add that whenever in a dangerous situation you must have 100% confidence in your equipment and in you ability to use it.

You cannot have ANY doubts in your mind.

While it is possible that your ability can make up for some deficency in your equipment,
NO piece of equipment can make up for your lack of ability.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Let me add that whenever in a dangerous situation you must have 100% confidence in your equipment and in you ability to use it.

You cannot have ANY doubts in your mind.

While it is possible that your ability can make up for some deficency in your equipment,
NO piece of equipment can make up for your lack of ability.

However, no matter how great your ability, you will never be infallible.

The world champion shooters are determined in competitions in which the second best shooter in the world misses once more that the champion misses.

Moreover, you may not enjoy the opportunity to make a successful brain shot for a number of reasons, including angle, thickness of the bush, distance and time.

Why, if you've got the choice, go in with less than a full hand? A full hand includes a stopping rifle in this situation.

(By the way, I'll repeat that you've gotta be nuts to elephant hunt with a 9.3x74, and I'll add really nuts to hunt cows in the Save with a 9.3x74 when you have a perfectly suitable 450NE No2! )

JPK

Yeah right, your only going to Africa once and only shoot 1 buff and one ele. Ha,Ha,ha,ha, ha,ha,



Once you do that you will sell everything else you own and go back.
Although I did not use my 450/400 3.25 in
Africa I did recently purchase a 450 3.25 underlever hammer gun and I am already glad I did. The bullet selection has made my life easier and I can definitely tell the energy output of even the NE loads are greater.
More confidence in the rifle.
Frank
Frank

Frank,

Well, you gotta serious point about needing to go back!