Decided to start a new thread to slow down any confusion. I am about 75% sure I am going to order one of the Chapuis rifles in 9.3x74. I plan on scoping it.
It seems what has started out to be a $4,250 rifle now needs a left handed stock for $150, recoil pad for $120, scope mount for $340 and now an extra $240 to have the rifle regulated for 100 yards if I am using a scope on it.
My questions are:
Do you need to spend to spend the extra money to have it regualted for 100 yards?
If you add a scope to this rifle and then remove it does it effect the point of impact?
Thanks for your help but this "super buy" is slowly getting out of my affordability range.

You should ask Dale about the $240 extra charge. Do the recoil pad here for +/- $50.
Really it does not have much recoil even with a plain butt.

Hog Killer

all i can tell you is that i've scoped 3 doubles with mounts that i made and none of them had regulation affected at all. 140 for a pad is way to much

Snowwolfe:

Adding a scope to a double adds weight, and weight dampens recoil. "Regulation" is slaved to the recoil arc of the gun during barrel time. The lighter the gun, the greater the percentage of total weight the scope represents, and the Chapuis is very light. So, sometimes, adding a scope will INCREASE group size over useful range. Some DRs tolerate it just fine, but some times regulation goes in the toilet, and there's no predicting it. I've seen DRs that had been scoped, and then scope and mounts were removed because the result was useless.

By all means, if you are going to scope it, eliminate the potential problem by having it regulated at the factory with the scope that you're going to mount. The Chapuis is usually very well regulated, more than accurate enough to make good use of a scope, so I would make the most of it.

BTW, go into hock and spring for the the claw mount instead. Much more expensive than the pivot, and much, much, much better.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

In my mind, the difference in 50 and 100 yds is pretty small anyway. Some take the stand that a properly regulated double is regulated to hold the shots the same distance apart at all ranges (parallel trajectories). I am in the first order, and didn't even give it a thought. In the US anyway, I doubt if there are a handful of people who shoot factory ammo. The issue then is to tailor a load to your rifle. Pick 50 or 100 or 150 and have at it. The differential will be slight.

You can also save the $150 on the LH stock...just have the stock made with no cheek peace....that is what I did. Skip the recoil pad...you can do that later if you need one, but as Mark suggested, have the gun regulated with the scope.

Don't forget to add the cost of the scope itself. Sounds like a $6k rifle.

After shooting Bal's 9.3X74R and seeing what Tony can do with his scoped Chapuis, there was no way that I wouldn't get a 9.3X74R without a scope.

If my eyes get any worse, my Hollis will be sporting JJ's mounts or Claws.

Hey we are always trying to stretch the performance of our rifles. A scoped 9.3 makes perfect sense!

Get the scope. You can take it off if you don't want it, but it's gong to be Hell to use a scope if the rifle doesn't have mounts.
You won't regret the scope!

Bought a Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74r. Decided it would be better scoped so proceeded to remove the 2 blocks in the rib and cut portions of a Ruger 1/4 Rib to fit the openings. Drilled the blocks with the same hole spacing as original blocks so I could replace blocks back to original if desired. Proceeded to range and shot a group and adjusted the scope to zero and carried on. Since I never even THOUGHT about the gun not regulating I suppose it didn't think about it either. I modified an Otto Geyger 8x60rs to take Leupold QR rings and did the same with it. I have scoped 2 Valmets with 5 sets of barrels and have yet to have a regulation problem. Either I am shot thru with luck (and if so it's the ONLY place) it's no big thing for most guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Snowwolfe:

BTW, go into hock and spring for the the claw mount instead. Much more expensive than the pivot, and much, much, much better.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

How much is the claw mount and does it require any gunsmithing to install? I would perfer to have a scope that is easily to remove as some of my hunting will be in the really thick alders up here.

Is it reasonable to expect 2 moa or better at 100 yards with this rifle scoped?

You folks are a wealth of good information and I appreciate it.

Snowwolfe:

Yes, the claw mounts must be installed by a gunsmith. It's best to have Chapuis do it. I don't know what Chapuis charges for them, ask Dale. I think J. J. told me he charges $800 to $1000 depending on application. No QD mount detaches and reattaches as fast or as simply as a claw. No detachable mount is stronger, or returns to zero as reliably.

The way I use doubles, I would anticipate wanting to switch back and forth between sights and scope quickly were I to scope it all. To do otherwise gives away much of the purpose of spending the money for a double to begin with. The claw is expensive, but worth the price differential in spades.

From those I've shot, yeah, 2 moa is realistic.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express: Butch Searcy says that Talley QD mounts are the way to go. I have a Searcy ordered, and he recommended the Talley system over the claw mounts, and the Talley's are less expensive. He says the Talley's are just as strong & will hold up better with much use & recoil. That being said, I have factory-installed claw mounts on my 9.3 Chapuis, but the Talley's on the 450/400 Searcy (on order).

NO, REPEAT NO , LEVER OPERATED MOUNT SYSTEM WILL EVER BE AS FAST OR AS RELIABLE AS A CLAW MOUNT.

NO MATTER WHO SAYS OTHERWISE, THAT IS A FACT !

FORGET YOUR TALLEY AND WARNE - THEIR ONLY ADVANTAGE IS THEY ARE CHEAP. AND ANYONE CAN MILL A BASE TO ACCEPT THEM.

Since my knowledge of double rifles is almost zlich I am always willing to learn. Why are lever type mounts not as fast or reliable as claw types?

small is beautiful

a dainty 1.25-4x20 (Schmitt & Bender) ultra low mounted (claw mount) seems more elegant that a 1.5-6x42 (the upper one, with a pivot mount).

A removable tiny docter red spot is fine as well.
What I feel best is that all these devices can be removed and re-mounted in a flash, without loosing the POI.

Does anyone have a picture of the Evolution Chapuis scope mount?

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
400 Nitro Express: Butch Searcy says that Talley QD mounts are the way to go. I have a Searcy ordered, and he recommended the Talley system over the claw mounts, and the Talley's are less expensive. He says the Talley's are just as strong & will hold up better with much use & recoil. That being said, I have factory-installed claw mounts on my 9.3 Chapuis, but the Talley's on the 450/400
Searcy (on order).

That's a crock. Were I stuck with lever operated mounts, I wouldn't scope it at all.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

When I ordered my Searcy, I ask Butch which he would recommend, NOT what was the cheapest. I'm only telling what his advice was; when you pay thousands of dollars for a rifle, a few hundred more isn't worth worrying about. That being said, I'm no expert; however, I'd take his advice again if he's building it & he says that's the way to go.

They're too cumbersome and slow. Krieghoff pushes their pivot mount over the claw too, but that doesn't make 'em right.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

CLAW MOUNTS ARE EXPENSIVE TO INSTALL ..... AND TAKE A LOT OF EXPERTISE TO DO. NOT ALL GUNMAKERS ARE CAPABLE OF PROPERLY INSTALLING THEM WITHOUT DIFFICULTY.

YET THEY ARE UNDENIABLY THE FASTEST ( AND READ BEST ) SYSTEM. TO REMOVE YOU PULL BACK ON THE SLIDING LOCK AT THE REAR BASE THEN LIFT YOUR SCOPE OFF.

WITH THOSE "CLEVER" ( READ CHEAP) MOUNTS WITH THE CUTE LITTLE LEVERS YOU MUST PUSH --BOTH-- LEVERS TO THE REMOVAL POSITION. FOR THIS TYPE OF LEVER MOUNT TO BE EFFECTIVE THE LEVERS MUST..TIGHTLY .. BIND THE DOVETAIL BASE. THEY DON'T "PUSH" EASILY OR QUICKLY. BUT THEY ARE CHEAP..... KEEP REMINDING YOURSELF ABOUT THAT !

A CLAW MOUNT SCOPE CAN BE REMOVED .....AND RE-INSTALLED BEFORE YOU GET THOSE TWO LITTLE LEVERS LINED UP TO REMOVE THE SCOPE.

BUT REMEMBER ,,, THEY ARE CHEAP. SO COUNT YOUR SAVINGS, JUST HOPE YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET YOUR SCOPE ON OR OFF QUICKLY- IT WON'T HAPPEN.

I have 4 guns with claw mounts [including my wifes drilling].
They are the best mounts I have ever used.

The best "factory" mount is the Blaser Saddle Mount, by a large margin.

However my 9,3x74R Chapuis has the Chapuis pivot mount. I have 2 scopes in rings that I use on the rifle. [A Swarovski 1.5-6x42 with the illuminated circle dot reticle and a Leupold 2.5-8 with the heavy duplex.

The pivot mount has worked 100%. It is almost as fast, within a few 10ths of a second, on and off as the claw mounts.

You can mount a larger objective scope lower with the pivot mount as it does not have to clear sights, raised ribs, etc when going on or off.

One reason I used the S&B 1.1-4 straight tube objective on my drilling and 450/400 is that I wanted claw mounts. The 1.5-6x42 could not be mounted low like I wanted.

It might not be a bad idea to have the Chapuis regulated with the scope of your choice already mounted to the rifle.

However on my Chapuis and on my 450/400 the scope does not change the regulation near as I can tell. I have shot the Chapuis on paper and game as far as 300 yards.

On the 9,3 I see no problems with the pivot mount,. on a heavier kicker I would go with claw. Also I would use a straght tube scope on a 40+ calibre double anyway.

A 9,3 Chapuis, with scope in QD mounts, is one of the best hunting rifles on the Planet.

I have several QD mounts and no doubt, the claw mount beats them all in terms of quality, reliability and... cost. About the latter, should an additional 600-700 USD really turn you off when you've already decided to lay down the price of a quality double ? Would you buy a cheap plastic accessory for a Mercedes ?

What is that André? Is it a Beretta?

Sure does look good with that small scope on.

I will get my new, fist ds tomorrow as my licence was approwed yesterday, will try and post some pics later.

Best regards Chris.

Keep in mind that if you reregulate the double it will then be regulated for the scope. My opinion would be to leave it regulated for the iron sights. That is what I've done with both my double rifles and then sight one barrel in for the scope. Chances are when useing the scope the situation won't normaly call for a quick follow up shot and if your in close my choice would be the irons.
I have claw mounts on both double rifles as well as both my drillings and both my bockbuchsflinten (combo guns) and three of my bolt rifles have claw mounts. I love them and they perform perfectly but they are not the last word in scope mounts. The German swing mounts such as the ones made by EAW or Bock are just as good and they allow for wear. Old worn out claw mounts requier much work to repair but the swing mounts requier only a little adjustment.

No Chris, it's a Belgian FN-Browning in 9,3x74R. FN's custom shop still handmakes a few per year, starting from a 20 ga B25 rough forged action. Walls are left much thicker and heat treament differs from a shotgun receiver. I've had it since 1982 and use it as my (fair weather) drive hunting rifle. It carries a Swarovski 1,25-4x24 in Sühler claw mounts.
Here are a few more pics (NB.: engraving is signed by José Baerten, FN's former master engraver)

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Keep in mind that if you reregulate the double it will then be regulated for the scope. My opinion would be to leave it regulated for the iron sights. That is what I've done with both my double rifles and then sight one barrel in for the scope. Chances are when useing the scope the situation won't normaly call for a quick follow up shot and if your in close my choice would be the irons.

If you're going to do that, why waste the extra money on a double. Just use bolt cranker trash.

quote:

I have claw mounts on both double rifles as well as both my drillings and both my bockbuchsflinten (combo guns) and three of my bolt rifles have claw mounts. I love them and they perform perfectly but they are not the last word in scope mounts.

They were among the first and, yes, they remain the last word in detachable mounts.

quote:

The German swing mounts such as the ones made by EAW or Bock are just as good and they allow for wear.

quote:

Old worn out claw mounts requier much work to repair but the swing mounts requier only a little adjustment.

The very best of most things mechanical aren't for shadetree hacks, and are thus somewhat expensive to work on. I've never seen a worn out claw mount, although I've seen quite a few frucked up by "gunsmiths".
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
Keep in mind that if you reregulate the double it will then be regulated for the scope. My opinion would be to leave it regulated for the iron sights. That is what I've done with both my double rifles and then sight one barrel in for the scope. Chances are when useing the scope the situation won't normaly call for a quick follow up shot and if your in close my choice would be the irons.
I have claw mounts on both double rifles as well as both my drillings and both my bockbuchsflinten (combo guns) and three of my bolt rifles have claw mounts. I love them and they perform perfectly but they are not the last word in scope mounts. The German swing mounts such as the ones made by EAW or Bock are just as good and they allow for wear. Old worn out claw mounts requier much work to repair but the swing mounts requier only a little adjustment.

This is probably the best response I read on this entire post. What a great idea. This is the route I plan on taking and I plan on ordering the pivot mount based on N E 450 No2 comments.
Thank you

Again I have not experienced any problem with mounting a scope on a double rifle and having the regulation/grouping effected.

Right before I left for Africa I fired an 8 shot group, without letting the double cool out of my 450/400 3 1/4", at 100 yards.
4 Woodleigh Solids, 2 Woodleigh Softs, and 2 Hawk Softs with the .035jkt. all 400 grains.

All loaded with 71.5gr of RL 15 with filler.
Group size of all shots was just under 4".
The Hawks enlarged the group, the Woodleighs were with in 3".

Ah, yes, "just as good as..." is the cry of so many when doing it right costs a bit more. A farthing screams for assistance when it passes into their hands! Put a scope on a nice double and end up with a cheap single shot just to save 10%. Cheap will forever be King!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

If you scope and factory regulate the double at 100 yards, what should the group do when you remove the scope and use the open sights at 50 yards and closer?

Plenty good enough for 50 to 75 yard shooting, most likely. Nicely regulated for the scope at longer ranges, which is what you want.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

DennisHP
If you regulate your double for the scope I'd say you won't have any problem at all @ 50 yards. Maybe if you wanted to head shoot squrrils at 50 yards there might be a bit of a problem but for big game you'll be good.

Snowwolfe

I live in Anchorage. I'd be happy to meet you on the range with my doubles and give you some pointers. the problem here is that I won't be home for several months.

400 nitro express

I appreciate you breaking down my Quotes and pointing out where I was going wrong. You must understand that I have only hunted on three continents with double rifles so I have a lot to learn.

Didn't mean to start a pissing match; just passing on what was recommended by Mr. Searcy. Obviously trying to save a FEW hundred $$$ on a rifle that cost $12,000. would demonstrate poor economic decision-making. We'll see how the Talley mounts perform when I get the rifle. Remember, though, as stated in my initial post, money was NO object in my decision to select the Talley mounts - they were recommended by Butch. Hell, I've wasted half my life's savings on guns & Harleys; I'm not going to start now being a cheap bastard !!! I hope to live long enough to waste a little more for such things, and maybe even a little on some ugly, stupid, fat women.

Jean B
What calibre is the Chapuis with the doctor sight and what game have you taken with it.

Red dot sights are all the rage with US Military, especially Special OPS types and American Police SWAT teams.

You do not see them much among hunters here. I am experimenting with a Zeiss Z Point on a Blaser R 93 Tracker in 308.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter

400 nitro express

I appreciate you breaking down my Quotes and pointing out where I was going wrong. You must understand that I have only hunted on three continents with double rifles so I have a lot to learn.

You're welcome!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Jean B
What calibre is the Chapuis with the doctor sight and what game have you taken with it.

Red dot sights are all the rage with US Military, especially Special OPS types and American Police SWAT teams.

You do not see them much among hunters here. I am experimenting with a Zeiss Z Point on a Blaser R 93 Tracker in 308.

N E 450 N°2
I was wondering what will I rig on my 470NE between the Docter and Your Zeiss Z Point. I opted for the Docter that's a tad smaller and cheaper.
I would have loved to use the double without scope or red spot but I am 53 and my sight is feeble.
I must confess that for the moment I haven't shoot any game with the 470 NE. I have bought it this year (thanks to 500grains) and the Docter was just mounted last month. I am still regulating it (no small task, for in fucking france we can use only 2 sort of powder, Vectan and Vithavuori) and I 'll use it to shoot a couple of wild boars during winter driven hunts. In july I'll join Buzz Charlton in Zimbabwe and will use it on buff and ele.

Please what is the Tracker like? Most of my hunting partners are using R93 (not the forbidden military 308)but I reckon I ignor what the tracker model is?
Cheers
jb

Docter Optics makes some fine glass. They aren't very videly known here in the US.

I bought a pair of long range Docter binos about 7 years ago, when they were even less well known here. They are incredible.

Never even thought about a Docter scope - until now. I've got an order in for a Chapuis in 9.3 X 74 and that may be just the ticket for it. Thanks for the insight, jb.

jb - only two powder makers does limit ones options. I would have thought you would have access to Norma as well. Are you that limited in your choice of bullets as well?

I think the "Track" model has a very short barrel.

Jean B
The Ziess was loaned to me for testing by a buddy.

I shoot right handed but I am left eye dominate so I must close my left eye to aim a rifle.
I prefer a low power scope as they actually have a wider field of view with the left eye closed than do the red dot sights.

However the red dot sights are usuall lighter and smaller than a scope.

I think I like the Blaser Hit Pro made by S&B best, just looking at them in the store.

I must say I am extreamly happy with the S&B 1.1-4 on my 450/400 double.

The Tracker version of the Blaser R 93 has a 50cm [19 3/4"] bbl.

I would think Vit. powder N140 would be about right for the 470. It is about the same burning rate as RL 15. You must use a filler.

I would start around 85 grains with 500gr bullets, and work up watching for pressure signs of course.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Jean B
The Ziess was loaned to me for testing by a buddy.

I shoot right handed but I am left eye dominate so I must close my left eye to aim a rifle.
I prefer a low power scope as they actually have a wider field of view with the left eye closed than do the red dot sights.

However the red dot sights are usuall lighter and smaller than a scope.

I think I like the Blaser Hit Pro made by S&B best, just looking at them in the store.

I must say I am extreamly happy with the S&B 1.1-4 on my 450/400 double.

The Tracker version of the Blaser R 93 has a 50cm [19 3/4"] bbl.

I would think Vit. powder N140 would be about right for the 470. It is about the same burning rate as RL 15. You must use a filler.

I would start around 85 grains with 500gr bullets, and work up watching for pressure signs of course.

Thanks for the data.
I imagine the tracker R93 is very fast to cock? perfect for running games.

I'll try your Vihta recipe : 85gr of 140.
The only other recipe I have got (from ErikD) is 95 gr of Vihta 160, without filler.
Good luck