Preferably with pics.

What is the difference between chopper-lump, monobloc, shoe-lump, etc ?

I know this has been discussed before but I am still confused. Mac, I know that you know, can you help?

This pic of a Searcy PH currently for sale in the Classifieds is what has prompted my question. I can see where the barrels were soldered in, this one is apparently shoe-lump according to the description I was incorrect, the ad doesn't state that. How does one tell them all apart?

Here's a link to Hallowells site. He's got some very good explainations in there.

That Searcy is a mono-block. The barrels are screwed into the block.Look for a seam on the barrels just in front of the chambers.

Thanks Mike, I just went back and re-read the ad and he said nothing about shoe-lump, I don't know where I got that. I modified my original post to correct that.

I'm guessing the seams I see on the face are where it is threaded into the bloc, then?

Correct! It's a good system but the shoe and chopper lumps might be stronger.

Most mono's are screwed together and soldered also. They won't come apart.

Whoopps I didn't get the link attached..



http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#Regulation

Thanks for the link. It's starting to make sense now, especially this particular page.

http://www.hallowellco.com/lumps.htm


What then is my Verney-Carron .470NE with its triple hook?


Here is the ring forward of the chambers you referred to on a monobloc.

LOL, Look at it and figure it out! I don't have one of those, yet.....

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
LOL, Look at it and figure it out! I don't have one of those, yet.....

I heading up to the safe now.

I couldn't get the drawings to paste onto this page but the text may help! I'll see if I have the drawings in my picture storage and if so I'll try to add them in later! Maybe the text will be self explanatory! I wrote this sometime back and i hope it helps! The drawings are from Hallowell, and the text is mine! Some of the text on Hallowell is incorrect,in regard to the ststement about Dimi-block being chopper lump! Many doubles are advertized as DIMI-BLOCK barrels that are not Chopperlump. The words Demi-bloc is a French word simply means "HALF BLOC" That can mean half of about anything though the Chopper lump can be called Demi-bloc, so can about anything else that is halfed in two parts and not only halfed side by side, but top and bottom, like the SHOE-LUMP or The DOVETAIL being the bottom and the barrels being the top! In essence it really means nothing definative in regard to double rifle barrel construction!



FIG #1

The above example is a drawing of a set of “chopper lump” barrels. Each barrel being forged, with half of the under lumps, and the quarter rib butt, integral to the barrels, looking sort of like a hatchet, hence the name CHOPPER lumps. These two are fitted together, with an amount of barrel convergence, by educated guess. They are then fluxed, and wired together, and brazed together at the first four inches or so, of the breech end of the barrels! Then a wedge is soldered in between the muzzles, and the full quarter rib is soldered in place, with an extension down between the barrels, to make a fore-end latch hook. Now the fitting of the barrels to the action can take place.
This is the type of barrel joining that is, most times, used on British double rifles, and is considered, by most purists, to be the only way to build barrels, and is very expensive, compared to other methods. Here I’ll let you decide the value of the chopper-lump barrels over other methods, but I’m not convinced that it is as great as some people think! Never the less you will pay a premium for a rifle with chopper lump barrels.



FIG #2


The above example is the so-called “PLATEFORM LUMP”, or “SHOE LUMP” barrels set. This barrel set is joined to a one-piece lump that is saddled to accept the barrels. The purists frown on this method of joining of barrels, but many very fine European double rifles are made this way, some with very high chamber pressure cartridges, seemingly with no problem long term! Rifles like HEYM, and MERKEL are made this way, and both are very respected makers, and there are others as well. In my opinion, this method, if done properly, is as good as it needs to be. I have double rifles made both ways, and have had zero problem from any of them. This method is cost effective, because much of the “HOG” work can be done by CNC machines. The final fitting has to be done by hand anyway, so it is not a strength, or quality killer.



Fig 3#

The figure #3 above is the “MONO-BLOCK”, method of barrel joining. This is a very modern way of building a barrel set, and takes the value of the old lump locking system, and combines it with the modern bolt action technology, by fitting a solid block of steel that incorporates the breech end of the barrel set, the under-lumps, and the quarter rib butt. The barrels are then threaded into side by side holes bored through the block, similar to installing barrels into a bolt action rifle. Then trimmed off flush with breech face of the block. This is a very strong method of barrel construction. This method of barrel joining is the most maligned, by the purists, and totally without cause, in my opinion. There seems to be a factor of nostalgia involved here, and in reality makes sense, when you realize the double rifle firearm has been around for a long time, and though the mono-block is just the latest change in construction, it is the NOW step child of the purists! The other methods had their dissenters, as they came along, however we seem to forget them when something new comes off the table. This is the case with mono-block. It’s new, and not trusted by many double rifle enthusiast, especially those who are British double rifle fans.







Fig#4


The above example is a “DOVE TAIL” lump barrel set , and is not used much today, being a LEFT OVER from the black powder days. Today it is used mostly in the building of Black powder replicas, or cheap shotguns. In my opinion, this is the weakest of the joining methods. However, many of these old rifles still exist, and are doing fine in the hunting fields every day.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Preferably with pics.

What is the difference between chopper-lump, monobloc, shoe-lump, etc ?

I know this has been discussed before but I am still confused. Mac, I know that you know, can you help?

This pic of a Searcy PH currently for sale in the Classifieds is what has prompted my question. I can see where the barrels were soldered in, this one is apparently shoe-lump according to the description I was incorrect, the ad doesn't state that. How does one tell them all apart?

The B.Searcy barrels are mono-block barrels and are threaded into the mono-block!

Thanks Mac and Mike, that's just the explanation I was looking for. It all makes sense now.

So??? What type is your VC???

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
So??? What type is your VC???

The V/C is a very unique locking system, and looks to be as strong as a bank vault! From the three I examined and shot down at 4K, the barrel-set seems to be shoe-lump!

I've heard people comment on the V/C not having a "THIRD FASTENER" and I say that statement is not well thought out! The V/C has three under lugs that fit into three slots in the action barr, to retard opening around the hinge pin, with three bites and six mating sides in the action barr to retard side warping under firing pressure!

IMO a so-called conventional third fastener like a DOLL'S HEAD, or Greener cross bolt would be redundant to say the least!
...............................

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
So??? What type is your VC???

From the explanations given above I'm guessing shoe-lump as Mac said. Here are some pics I took last night.