I had the chance to handle three Sabatti doubles yesterday at the North Fort Worth Cabelas. They looked like a lot of gun for the money. Wood was nice -- better than plain certainly -- and fit was very good. Wood finish might have been smoother, but I wouldn't quibble at that price.
The first gun I handled was a .450/400 ejector. It seemed just a bit heavy to me, but I have only owned and shot Ruger No. 1s in this caliber. The gun came up reasonably well, but I would consider shortening LOP a half inch and adding a recoil pad with a smooth heel so as to catch on my clothing less. I know I could learn to push it away as I mounted it to reduce this effect, or wear something less catchy than a Baylor waffle-weave jersey.
Next gun was a .450 NE. This was more like it. The gun just seemed better balanced in my hands and came up very nicely. I would be tempted to go with this guy vs. the .450-400 in spite of my fondness for the latter, and for wanting to minimize recoil issues. And of course I have a bunch of .458 molds for cast practice loads.
Last up was the small-frame .45-70. Geez, if I weren't really hoping for a Cape buff gun, this one would be very tempting. It handled almost like a bird gun and was very well balanced. My 21-year-old daughter really loved this guy, too. I realize the 9,3X74 version would have been very similar in feel, but they didn't have one in stock.
The Gun Library guy said Sabatti is working on a .375 H&H on the small frame, which I believe has been reported here before. If they can pull it off, it might be the absolute nuts for an all-around, anything-but-elephants gun.
I also mentioned the controversy over the muzzle-crown regulation issues, and the Gun Librarian winced a little and said yes, there has been some grumbling. But he said folks who have bought from the Fort Worth store have been very happy with their Sabattis' performance on target and in the field so far.
I'm inclined to think these guns remain a value, and have put them back on my if-I-had-a-few-thousand list.
Hope to hear good things soon from CCMdoc on his gun ...

And three more, this time at the new Cabelas that opened last week in Eugene/Springfield, Oregon, just 2 1/2 hours north of me.
This Cabelas had both the 9,3 and .45-70 on the small frame with the "Optiwood" stocks. Not sure I would opt for Optiwood, but the 9,3 handled like a damned fly rod. I think the trouble with these little wands is that while they will do some serious work, they just don't feel like a serious DR. Handled the .470 withejectors and another .450 with ejectors. I think I like the feel and balance of the .470 just a smidge more than the .450, but the .450 continues to make so much sense regarding all the available component bullets.
I forgot to bring a small light and magnifier to examine the muzzle crowns for the infamous regulation by file, and my bifocals and the Gun Library light were not up to the task, so I can't say how these rifles were regulated. Let's just say they remain terribly tempting.
I do find the length of pull on the nitro calibers just a bit long for me, as the butts want to hang up on the hollow of my shoulder when I mount them. Anyone else notice this? Could be my poor technique.

quote:

I'm inclined to think these guns remain a value, and have put them back on my if-I-had-a-few-thousand list.

They are or would be good value IF someone could guarantee 100%
that they all worked. If I wanted a low cost thrash double,
i'd buy one as they are good value if they work, but just
2 peices of metal welded together if they don't.

Re the LOP
IMHO, Better to have a long LOP than a short and cut it down
than a short and try to build it up. A long LOP can all buyers
needs but a short one can't.

Also, the LOP is only one component of a stock. The LOP may be fine
but the heel / toe may just be at the wrong angle for you.

.

I got to handle the Sabattis at the EAA booth at the NRA show in Pittsburg PA.

They only had 2 Sabatti double rifles there, a .500NE, and a .45-70. Both had goobered-up muzzeles. The .500 was way light for caliber. The .45-70 suprised me a little, it felt like a nicer sort of gun than the big bore model Sabattis.


Cabelas had a booth there also with 2 Sabattis, a .470 and a .45-70. They had them with zip-tied to the display rack, so you couldn't hold them.

I told the guy there about the problems I had with Sabatti(s). He said he was very sorry to hear it and appologised for my poor experiance. He also said that this was the first negative report he had heard on the Sabattis. He told me that he owned a Merkel but had bought a Sabatti in .45-70 for fun and loved it. I told him about the muzzle grinding issue, and how I was not the only guy to have this problem. He said that that they were aware of the "method of regulation", but had only recently learned that it was a problem and that none of the "newer" guns had that problem.

He invited me into the booth to inspect the muzzles... and both Sabatti DRs had ground out muzzles. I showed him what I was talking about, then he almost seemed a little embarrassed and didn't quite know what to say.


He said that if a Sabatti had a problem of any sort or doesn't shoot straight (because of the muzzles or not) that they would stand behind the (new) guns they sold and repair or replace or refund any defective Sabatti.


I'm not trying to start a Sabatti bashing party here. I just thought this information would be pertitent to the topic at hand.

It is very pertinent.

He would have felt so small when you showed him
the ground out muzzles.

Also, this "lack of knowledge" in all things is why people buy on price and why mot companies get away with producing crap.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
If I wanted a low cost thrash double,
i'd buy one as they are good value if they work, but just
2 peices of metal welded together if they don't.
.

What would be your recommended chambering?

There is plenty of information on Sabattis and their extremely poor quality and other issues. Here and on other sites.

It is not simply a class war thing. Sabatti's have some serious quality issues. Do a search here and try to be subjective. Don't let double rifle fever blind you to the facts. The Christmas morning thrill of buying your first double will quickly fade into remorse when the thing doesn't shoot well and there is no fix for it as has been the case in multiple Sabatti's purchased.

Anytime you see that Dremel tool has been applied to the rifling at the muzzle in an attempt to make the rifle shoot you need to skip past the walk and run away from that manufacturer. And muzzle grinding is the method that the Sabatti boys are using to regulate their rifles.

Surestrike, other than the now known muzzle grinding issue can you elaborate on the "extremely poor quality" and "serious quality issues" so we will know what to look for. I have looked at and handled a bunch of the sabatti big bores and i would like to know what to look for when i go back and recheck these. Please help us novice's out, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What would be your recommended chambering?

On the basis of if I didn't have other DR's.

Over here, for practical hunting purposes of most animals,
9.3 x 74R would cover everything.

Then you would have to have a big bore, so prob 470 or 500.

Everyone is saying the 450/400's are nice.

Those 3 would get you into quite a few Big Game Rifle Club
competitions as well.

.

Surestrike

Apart form the grinding of the bores as a short cut regulation method / issue,
I can't remember hammering Sabatti on any other
"extremely poor quality and other issues".

A few of us, me included, said that producing a DR at this low cost just isn't possible without corners being cut.

Then some guns were being reported as not shooting, and then the big one we had been
waiting for, the "grinding of the bores as
a short cut regulation method" which as far
as I remember is the only major issue, just a bloody big one and in the most important area.

The not working / broken ejector, one (or at most a couple) and that can happen on any DR.


So can you elaborate ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What would be your recommended chambering?

On the basis of if I didn't have other DR's.

Over here, for practical hunting purposes of most animals,
9.3 x 74R would cover everything.

Then you would have to have a big bore, so prob 470 or 500.

Everyone is saying the 450/400's are nice.

Those 3 would get you into quite a few Big Game Rifle Club
competitions as well.

.

You missed the point. I refer to the desired chambering of the two pieces of steel welded together.

quote:

A few of us, me included, said that producing a DR at this low cost just isn't possible without corners being cut.

I don't think that is absolutely true. It is probably difficult to make a $5500 big double but you can buy very well made Chapuis' in the the smaller calibers for less than that.

Considering the markup that there undoubtedly is in the big bore Chapuis if the factory would tone down the engraving and fancy stocks you could probably buy a Chapuis for $5500 or close to it, or maybe less.

Will, Valid point.

I was thinking along the lines of the $3000 price
that was being banded about.

quote:

got to handle the Sabattis at the EAA booth at the NRA show in Pittsburg PA.

They only had 2 Sabatti double rifles there, a .500NE, and a .45-70. Both had goobered-up muzzeles. The .500 was way light for caliber. The .45-70 suprised me a little, it felt like a nicer sort of gun than the big bore model Sabattis.


Cabelas had a booth there also with 2 Sabattis, a .470 and a .45-70. They had them with zip-tied to the display rack, so you couldn't hold them.

I told the guy there about the problems I had with Sabatti(s). He said he was very sorry to hear it and appologised for my poor experiance. He also said that this was the first negative report he had heard on the Sabattis. He told me that he owned a Merkel but had bought a Sabatti in .45-70 for fun and loved it. I told him about the muzzle grinding issue, and how I was not the only guy to have this problem. He said that that they were aware of the "method of regulation", but had only recently learned that it was a problem and that none of the "newer" guns had that problem.

He invited me into the booth to inspect the muzzles... and both Sabatti DRs had ground out muzzles. I showed him what I was talking about, then he almost seemed a little embarrassed and didn't quite know what to say.


He said that if a Sabatti had a problem of any sort or doesn't shoot straight (because of the muzzles or not) that they would stand behind the (new) guns they sold and repair or replace or refund any defective Sabatti.


I'm not trying to start a Sabatti bashing party here. I just thought this information would be pertitent to the topic at hand.

and it starts again

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Surestrike, other than the now known muzzle grinding issue can you elaborate on the "extremely poor quality" and "serious quality issues" so we will know what to look for. I have looked at and handled a bunch of the sabatti big bores and i would like to know what to look for when i go back and recheck these. Please help us novice's out, thanks.

I can only speak from experience on the Sabatti rifles. I have one in .45-70 and have friends that have bought others. All have been found to be great rifles for the money. No malfunctions, fit and finish is excellent and accuracy is outstanding. Length of pull can be a bit long for some shooters, but is easily shortened and a different pad can be added if needed. I spoke with E.A.A.at the NRA Meetings in Pittsburgh regarding the muzzle grinding issue and they assured me they will stand behind any defective guns, as will Cabela's. I actually spoke with the E.A.A. Vice-President at the who oversees the E.A.A. repair department. He advised that almost without fail, every Sabatti double that had been returned for warranty repair had been disassembled and "tinkered with" (usually the triggers) prior to being returned, and then the rifle blamed for being defective. Sounds pretty typical. Our local Cabela's (where we bought ours) has sold dozens of Sabatti's and have had none returned for any defects. Customers love them according to the local Gun Library staff. I think the muzzle grinding issue has been blown completely out of reason. There probably were some defective guns that made it out, but we haven't seen or heard of any in our group of shooters, and E.A.A. promises to stand behind them anyway. So there you go. I'd bash them if they were junk, but they aren't. They are classy, well made, solid shooters. There is no such thing as a perfect rifle for everyone, and some internet "experts" have to bash everything that they don't approve of, but just some more honest reality and personal experience to consider. I have other doubles (much more expensive ones!!) and consider the Sabatti a great product for the double gun market. The more people shooting doubles, the better off we are!! I have no plans to replace my more expensive doubles, but I would not hesitate to buy another Sabatti. A little tweaking to suit personal tastes and you'll have a great gun. Hope this helps. Good shooting.

Hi buford848,

Welcome aboard AR and be ready for a rough ride regarding Sabattis.

I have one in 450/400 - excellent wood, excellent fit and finish, reasonable triggers, a pleasure to shoot.

The problem was that it wasn't properly regulated. It didn't shoot factory loads to POA nor any handloads with any bullets. It did have the lands on the outer 1/3 of the left muzzle ground down to the grooves at least 1" into the muzzle.

It had no other work at all done to it and was returned to E.A.A. on March 23rd after conferring with the manager of the Gun Library from which I bought it. I was told it was returned to Italy for repair and as of yesterday "They are still waiting on an export license; they expect it anytime this week and will ship as soon as it arrives."

I am hoping that the barrels have been replaced and it has been properly regulated with factory ammo or a load that I can duplicate.

I have had two Sabatti doubles - a 450NE and this 450/400. Both were exceptional specimens and the 450 was a dream and very accurate. I hope the 450/400 returns and lives up to my hopes, expectations and your experiences.

Hopefully we will all find out soon. If you read my previous posts on the subject, I am optimistic but also honest. The truth is what it is.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Hi buford848,

Welcome aboard AR and be ready for a rough ride regarding Sabattis.

I have one in 450/400 - excellent wood, excellent fit and finish, reasonable triggers, a pleasure to shoot.

The problem was that it wasn't properly regulated. It didn't shoot factory loads to POA nor any handloads with any bullets. It did have the lands on the outer 1/3 of the left muzzle ground down to the grooves at least 1" into the muzzle.

It had no other work at all done to it and was returned to E.A.A. on March 23rd after conferring with the manager of the Gun Library from which I bought it. I was told it was returned to Italy for repair and as of yesterday "They are still waiting on an export license; they expect it anytime this week and will ship as soon as it arrives."

I am hoping that the barrels have been replaced and it has been properly regulated with factory ammo or a load that I can duplicate.

I have had two Sabatti doubles - a 450NE and this 450/400. Both were exceptional specimens and the 450 was a dream and very accurate. I hope the 450/400 returns and lives up to my hopes, expectations and your experiences.

Hopefully we will all find out soon. If you read my previous posts on the subject, I am optimistic but also honest. The truth is what it is.

Thanks

Hi CCMDoc

Was sorry to see that you wound up with a bad Sabatti. As I said in my post, I figger some defective guns made it out, but we haven't seen any around here. Hope the .450/400 works out for you and I agree, the truth is what it is. Good shooting.

I have read some of the comments on the Sabattis. My question is, has anyone hunted in Africa with them, ie buffalo or elephant, and if not would you? I'm interested in you replies.

There is an active PH in Tanzania hunting with a 500 already. That should answer your question. I know I would

quote:

Originally posted by eyeman:
I have read some of the comments on the Sabattis. My question is, has anyone hunted in Africa with them, ie buffalo or elephant, and if not would you? I'm interested in you replies.

Upon its return and if all is right with it, mine will be in my father's hands as my back-up for elephant in Namibia in November.

If he doesn't use my Sabatti 450/400 for his leopard, it will be in my hands backing him up.

quote:

Originally posted by eyeman:
I have read some of the comments on the Sabattis. My question is, has anyone hunted in Africa with them, ie buffalo or elephant, and if not would you? I'm interested in you replies.

A Sabatti DR is just like any other DR or Bolt gun you are thinking of taking to Africa
or on any other hunt in the boon docks.

If it's not functioning properly under all conditions, you don't take it.

If it is functioning, you do.

Buford: Tell us more about your .45-70. Are you shooting any handloads through it?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

A few of us, me included, said that producing a DR at this low cost just isn't possible without corners being cut.

I don't think that is absolutely true. It is probably difficult to make a $5500 big double but you can buy very well made Chapuis' in the the smaller calibers for less than that.

Considering the markup that there undoubtedly is in the big bore Chapuis if the factory would tone down the engraving and fancy stocks you could probably buy a Chapuis for $5500 or close to it, or maybe less

It cost no less to build a quality small-bore double rifle than to build a quality big bore double rifle. Both require the same hand fitting to build, and the skilled labor wages don’t go down because the guy is working on a small bore rather than a big bore!

The reason for the disparity in price between the small bore double and the big bore double of the same quality is because of supply and demand. This mainly applies to the off the shelf double rifles rather than the custom one off rifles made to the owner’s specs.

Take the Chapuis doubles you mention for instance! These rifles are made on a predicted supply needed, and the length of time they will remain on the shelf.

The small-bore doubles move much faster than the big bore doubles, because more European, and now to some extent USA hunters use these rifles to hunt everything at HOME. So they fly off the shelves as fast as they can build them. They make fewer big bore rifles simply because they will sit on the shelves far longer before selling, than the small bores. In both cases the materials, and the skilled work has already been paid for when the rifle is finished and is placed on the shelf waiting sale to a retailer. The funds used to build the big bore are tied up far longer than that of the small bore, and time is money where operating funds are concerned. The longer time between the finished rifle and the return of the money plus the profit the higher the cost for the rifle that move the slowest. Economy 101.

Now if the wood was of less quality, and the engraving was discontinued, the rifle might sell cheaper, but the no frills small bores would, IMO, remain on the shelf longer negating some of the gain in doing the no frills. On the big bore the NO FRILLS named the PH model might sell faster because of the cut price, as we have seen with Heym, and Searcy PH model rifles. These are shortcuts in the double but are shortcuts that do not effect the working quality of the double rifles, unlike the shortcuts to regulation of a double rifle to cut cost, which DOES very seriously effect the working quality of the double rifle. The no frills is OK on the big bore because the guy buying the rifle to hunt big bad animals is more interested in the accuracy, reliability, and power, than the decoration!


............................................................

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
There is an active PH in Tanzania hunting with a 500 already. That should answer your question. I know I would

Did this PH have multiple Doubles to choose from or was this simply a fella who wanted a double and the Sabatti fell within his budget? I have seen rifles in the hands of a PH that I would not consider safe to hunt with. One in particular, a Win M70 would only feed one round in the magazine...makeing the rifle a two shot gun. The PH in question could not find anyone to fix the rifle correctly (he is in Zimbabwe). He was forced to use the gun. A New magazine spring and follower solved the issue. Another rifle I came across was a converted springfield in 505 Gibbs. This one would not eject a cartrige 50% of the time due to the extractor not fitted correctly. That one is probably still in use today.

My point is that most PH's have little choice in their guns and often time make due with what they have. The idea that if a PH uses a rifle then it must be a proven, bullet proof DG gun is wrong IMO. Look at the guns in the hads of the top level PH's like Johan Calitz, Ivan Carter, and such. These guys can hunt with any rifle they choose. They make strong endorsments IMO!

Hi Bill/Oregon;

Yes, I am shooting handloads through the Sabatti. Actually is the same handload I shoot through my lever guns which is 300 gr. JHP over 50.0 grs. IMR4198 and a large rifle standard primer. Velocity is 2050 fps. Can't tell you how many wild hogs have gone down with this load. The Sabatti was originally regulated with Hornady 325 gr. FTX factory loads and the above handload shoots just a little better than the factory load to the same point of aim. Hope this helps. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Buford: Tell us more about your .45-70. Are you shooting any handloads through it?

Thanks Buford. I was just wondering if you had worked up any cast-bullet loads with something like the old Lyman government 525-grain slug. I would think it would be harder to regulate because of the different dynamics and velocities.

I doubt you would be able to get a 525 gr. bullet to regulate through a Sabatti. They are simply not set up to handle high pressure / heavy bullet handloads like a Ruger #1 would or similiar. Best to keep pressures reasonable in the Sabatti's with the lighter .45 cal. bullets.