I have recently purchased (November 2008) a collectible double rifle made by Holland & Holland (short double rifle model Royal Hammerless Ejector cal.500/465NE, serial number №28554) at the auction. The gun was manufactured in 1921 and it was a pair of them produced at the same time. I have purchased gun number 2. Guys Is it any chance you help me to locate number 1 rifle?

There is a company in England called "Matched Pairs" who specialise in reuniting pairs that have been split over the years:

http://www.matchedpairs.com/

This is probably the best starting point.

Thanks. I'll try

Looks like they are dealing only with shotguns. Is that correct? I have send them an email

Russian,

At the site mentioned, matchedpairs.com, there is a site map page,
http://www.matchedpairs.com/double_rifles.htm that says:

"From time to time we are offered rare & very fine double rifles, even in pairs, ranging from .240 to 600/577 from an impeccable source.

This client is conscious or their rarity which he does not want devalued by excessive exposure.

If you have a specific requirement please let us know & we will endeavour to assist

Should you wish to sell your gun (single or pair) on this site please contact Joe Hall at Matched Pairs. The transaction will be treated in the strictest confidence at all times.
Email joehall@matchedpairs.com or phone 01740 620667

All material on this site © Matched Pairs Limited, 2003. Terms & Conditions. Website maintained by MayburyIT.co.uk.

So, it seems that matchedpairs.com does deal in double rifles, just not as often as shotguns.

Hope this helps,

Bwana Dave

Thanks again. I'm already in contact with them and hope for the best

quote:

Originally posted by Russian:
Thanks again. I'm already in contact with them and hope for the best

Well if he finds No 1, don't expect him to tell you where it is or put you in contact with the buyer. Expect an offer to buy yours and sell it to the other bloke.

why?

quote:

Originally posted by Russian:
why?

Because if he knows where the other of a pair is,
he can make a heap of $$$ by selling one gun to the other owner.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Russian:
Thanks again. I'm already in contact with them and hope for the best

Well if he finds No 1, don't expect him to tell you where it is or put you in contact with the buyer. Expect an offer to buy yours and sell it to the other bloke.

You're accusing him of being unethical. Unless you have some reason to say so, I think you're way out of line.

I didn't say anything about being unethical.

He is running a BUSINESS of selling guns and
specifically matching up pairs, he's not a charity.

Do you honestly think if he can buy a gun and match it
with another one that he would just do it for nothing ?


And by the way, I thought we lived in a democracy and
allowed free speech or have you banned that except for
the select few ?

Free speech is one thing, accusing someone of being unethical, which is exactly what you're doing, apparently without anything but a suspicious mind, is exactly what you're doing.

I didn't say anything about your not being able to post it, just that you're way out of line unless you've got some evidence to back up your statements and I stand by that position.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Free speech is one thing, accusing someone of being unethical, which is exactly what you're doing, apparently without anything but a suspicious mind, is exactly what you're doing.

I didn't say anything about your not being able to post it, just that you're way out of line unless you've got some evidence to back up your statements and I stand by that position.

How would you know what I know (or don't know) and who I know
who have had dealings with him ?


And as I said before, I DIDN'T say he was unethical,
I said he was running a business, not a charity.


It's like a gun dealer finding a gun case for a gun that
he knows the wherabouts of because he sold it in the past.

Why wouldn't he try to buy the gun case and sell it to the owner
of the gun. It's a simple business transaction.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Free speech is one thing, accusing someone of being unethical, which is exactly what you're doing, apparently without anything but a suspicious mind, is exactly what you're doing.

I didn't say anything about your not being able to post it, just that you're way out of line unless you've got some evidence to back up your statements and I stand by that position.

How would you know what I know (or don't know) and who I know
who have had dealings with him ?


And as I said before, I DIDN'T say he was unethical,
I said he was running a business, not a charity.


It's like a gun dealer finding a gun case for a gun that
he knows the wherabouts of because he sold it in the past.

Why wouldn't he try to buy the gun case and sell it to the owner
of the gun. It's a simple business transaction.

Obviously I wouldn't know what you might know about the owner of Matchedpairs. You're the one who is besmirching his reputation with allegations for which you obviously have no basis in fact.

Finally, if you can't see the difference between buying a gun case from a willing seller and then trying to sell it to someone else for a profit, from engaging someone to find a specific item for you and then that someone trying to use the knowledge which you gave him as a condition of his agency for profit beyond the commission or whatever basis he has agreed to work for, then I would suggest that Matchedpairs ethics are not the ones in question here, but yours are. Does it happen, of course, but it isn't right and saying a specific someone does it without personal knowledge that they do such underhanded dealings is not right either. IMO saying such in a public forum without facts to back up your assertion is libel.

Contact Holland and Holland and determine if the gun has been in for service within a reasonable time frame. They may have a lead for you that is recent.

What 500N has said is true. The guy is in business to make money. Nothing unethical about that or what 500N has said about the guy. He just voice an opine.

I would expect the guy to try broker a deal to sell one of the rifles. Just business!

When someone engages a realtor to find or attempt to purchase a specific piece of property for you, do you think he's "just doing business" if he buys the property from someone and then tries to sell it to his client at a higher price?

When someone hires a landman to go out and lease property for a hot oil prospect, is he "just doing business" if he leases some of it for his own (or more likely a cohort's) account and either keeps a royalty or that particular lease?

When someone hires someone to find a piece of equipment for them on a commission basis and that someone goes out and buys a piece of equipment, then sells it to his client at a higher price and gets a commission, do you think he's "just doing business".

True, all these things happen and all of them are either illegal or unethical. I prefer to do business with people who have integrity.

Back to the topic at hand, let's assume the owner of the above rifle knows that the #1 was a say, .375 H&H. Let's assume, for arguments sake, that the Russian hires Matchedpairs and subsequent to that, Matchedpairs finds the owner of #1 and approaches him to buy it to put the pair back together. The owner of #1 is a crown prince worth billions of dollars and doesn't want or need to sell it but would be interested in buying #2 for the same reason. At that point, it would be totally ethical for Matchmaker to convey that information to Russian and then to tell him that while the owner of #1 doesn't want to sell, he wants to buy #2. If the Russian decides to sell #2 at an agreed upon price, then Matchedpairs, depending on how the original arrangement was structured, can either get a commission from the Russian on the sale price or he can get a commission from the crown prince or both, as long as he is forthcoming with the details to the Russian, his client. That is business but the agent has to work for the person who engaged him with full disclosure except to protect himself he doesn't have to disclose the owner's name or location of the #1 rifle. The middlemen or agents are not the only unethical people in the world. People try to cut realtors out constantly. It is absolutely amazing to me what some people will do for even relatively small amounts of money even when it means being dishonest or dishonorable. A person either has integrity or he doesn't, it isn't like a shirt you can take on and off.

Russian

I would contact George Caswell at Champlin Arms in Enid Oklahoma.

He has handled a lot of double rifles over the years he may have seen the twin to yours.

Wish I hadn't spoke now.

Russian, good luck with your search. Genuine pairs of double rifles are as rare as hens teeth.

An email or phone call to H&H is also good advice.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Russian

I would contact George Caswell at Champlin Arms in Enid Oklahoma.

He has handled a lot of double rifles over the years he may have seen the twin to yours.

Do you have coordinates of George?

[quote]Posted 20 June 2009 19:13
Guys I'm looking at the same time for original H@H 500NE double or similar churchils. Do you know the right sources?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Russian:
Thanks again. I'm already in contact with them and hope for the best

Well if he finds No 1, don't expect him to tell you where it is or put you in contact with the buyer. Expect an offer to buy yours and sell it to the other bloke.

That is bit harsh for a dealer you don't know.
If you meant he will want a finder's fee if successful, that is usual and reasonable. OTOH, if the other owner (not Russian) declines but asks the dealer to make an offer to Russian for his, that is again usual and reasonable practice.

Russian:
Try George at Champlins for the 500 NE. He may have one in inventory not listed on his site or may have a connection. I have dealt with him to sell and purchase and he is a really good guy to deal with.

Dutch

Holland and Holland NYC USA has a .500 NE double used for sale at the bargain price!!! of US$200,000.00. I guess it depends on how much someone wants one........