Gentlemen,

Pondoro visited me yesterday and brought his trash - a pre-war John Wilkes in caliber 475 NE ! We put the pre-war next to my new VC 450 NE and there was not much difference except that the pre-war is bigger in the breech and in the box. ( I am sorry that I did not take any photo -next time I will ) The Wilkes was beautiful and fitted me like a glove except for a little too low comb. I must admit that even though I am very satisfied with my new VC, I fell in love with the old English. Just to hold that traditional rifle in my hand and thinking of its history was something !

Being a hunting addict I know that when getting a certain virus some heavy thoughts are starting to spin ! So - gentlemen - I need some advice:

- which rifle maker would you recommend for a pre-war double based on a most value for money ?
- which caliber would you recommend thinking of hunting elephant and Buffalo taken into consideration that police in Norway denies me to buy a 500 NE Caliber ?


Morten

Morten:
If you can't buy a .500, then you're stuck with a .450, .500-450, .450 no2, .465, .470. two .475 no2s, and a .476. The more common calibers and makers will get you the best price.

The "name" makers (Holland, Purdey, WR, Jeffery), will be higher priced, but Wilkes, lang, Lancaster, and a dozen lesser-known makers will offer quality just as good as the above four.

Still lower priced will be a nitro rifle with exposed hammers. They are out there but not as sought after but the animal won't know the difference. In my limited experience, an exposed hammer and Jones under lever double in .450 or .470 will be about 1/2 the price of a top lever box lock--all embellishments, etc., being equal.

A friend here in AK has a .450 no2 hammer double he has had for sale for 10K for 4-5 years and not a bite of interest. If the same rifle was in .500 black powder express it would have sold long ago for 10K. There is no logic in the market.

Good luck in your search.
Cal

Morten,

Of course, Cal has given you some great info. My $0.02 on makers, the top makers will indeed command a premium, but I believe they do a little better job of holding their value on resale. I put in this category, Holland, Rigby, Westley, Jeffery and Wm Evans (Purdey's are a whole different thing). Army & Navy doubles seem to also do a good job of holding value, as do Mantons. As you think about calibers, focus on component availability. That will favor the .458 groove diameter rifles, like the .450 NE and the .450 #2. Also the .470 just give prevalence in the market.

Make sure you read Cal's primer too.

So Morten,

Have you now embraced the splinter fore-end as being "proper"?

Morten. how about something like this?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100504964

Or maybe this? Get Cal's opinion first, of course.

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100423128

Another Jeffery in 475 #2:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100411072

And here's a Rodda in 475 v#2:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100227575

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
So Morten,

Have you now embraced the splinter fore-end as being "proper"?

Haha Todd,

I should have taken that photo

Then you will see that there is not much difference between my forend and a splinter lengthways, just some wood along the barrel. Jerome told me that the short splinter you find on pre-war doubles will not be strong enough. Too short. I think one reason is that the pre-war box is more wide than my roundbody VC. Then it is more wood from the start on the English splinter - if you understand what I am trying to describe !

I am satisfied with my foreend. The proportions looks nice and it feels right when mounting and aiming. I was surprised about the similarity between my VC and the John Wilkes pre-war. The main difference is the angle of the pistol grip - the pre-war was superb !


Morten

Thanks Jon,

but I have watched them all and several more. One thing that strikes me is that I have been watching them for a long time. Some of them have been for sale for more than 12-18 months. How come ? Bad quality or too high prices ?

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Gentlemen,

consideration that police in Norway denies me to buy a 500 NE Caliber ?


Morten

Get a .577 Express in sound and strong condition.

Like this Manton:
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100430120

Or buy my Manton 10bore

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
So Morten,

Have you now embraced the splinter fore-end as being "proper"?

Haha Todd,

I should have taken that photo

Then you will see that there is not much difference between my forend and a splinter lengthways, just some wood along the barrel. Jerome told me that the short splinter you find on pre-war doubles will not be strong enough. Too short. I think one reason is that the pre-war box is more wide than my roundbody VC. Then it is more wood from the start on the English splinter - if you understand what I am trying to describe !

I am satisfied with my foreend. The proportions looks nice and it feels right when mounting and aiming. I was surprised about the similarity between my VC and the John Wilkes pre-war. The main difference is the angle of the pistol grip - the pre-war was superb !


Morten

Not strong enough for what? The splinter is just there to keep the barrels on when you open the breach ... not to hold on to under recoil. For that, you hold the barrels!!

quote:

The splinter is just there to keep the barrels on when you open the breach ... not to hold on to under recoil. For that, you hold the barrels!!

Finally, someone has it correct.

Morten:
If you buy a .475 no2 for the Jeffery cartridge (.488") I have 20 boxes of ammo for sale.
Cal

Cal:
Shhh, don't give away the best kept secret in doubles....hammer underlevers. I'm trying to corner the market!

Jens:
The only reason that .577 hammer rifle is still there is that it is overpriced. Similar .577's have sold for 15-17K in the past 2 years.

Dutch

I warned you Morten, the prewar-doubles sing their siren song loudly and will pull you onto the rocky shore..

In other words, this is gonna cost you....

And I have not shown you my 10 bore Joseph Lang & Son rifle yet....oh my...

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Cal:
Shhh, don't give away the best kept secret in doubles....hammer underlevers. I'm trying to corner the market!

Jens:
The only reason that .577 hammer rifle is still there is that it is overpriced. Similar .577's have sold for 15-17K in the past 2 years.

Dutch

I know. That rifle started with costing USD38500 when it was listed some years ago.
I still think it was born as a .577express and then later Nitro proved(perhaps?).

Before you get too far down this path you would be well advised to check in with George, the doyen of double rifles . . . no, no, not that George . . . the other George, the quirky quack from Quebec.

What about this Morten..?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100507578

Or this one..?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100421345

Or take Cal´s advice, battle the authorities over the .500 and look at this one:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100491722

I kind of like that old heavy brute of a Jeffery myself..

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Before you get too far down this path you would be well advised to check in with George, the doyen of double rifles . . . no, no, not that George . . . the other George, the quirky quack from Quebec.

Is that the phone ringing? Need advice? What advice can I give someone who asks the question-What caliber should I use...I am thinking of hunting buffalo or ele with a double? and then shows interest in buying an antique double...

Your so lost, George.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Before you get too far down this path you would be well advised to check in with George, the doyen of double rifles . . . no, no, not that George . . . the other George, the quirky quack from Quebec.

Is that the phone ringing? Need advice? What advice can I give someone who asks the question-What caliber should I use...I am thinking of hunting buffalo or ele with a double? and then shows interest in buying an antique double...

Shootaway:
I appreciate your contributions to the AR forums. As to the antique thing, I would welcome a chance to compare any one or all of my antiques to your modern double. Hand work, accuracy, embellishments, class, character, history, quality, etc.

In 2016 I will be in Dallas and hope to meet you at whatever AR function there is: visiting room, formal dinner, etc., Hell, I'd be happy to meet with the fine AR folks at McDonalds. We could eat America's meat and potatoes, visit and chat about double rifles and Africa, and you could, errr, well,,, hang out in play land.

Cheers.
Cal the garbage collector.

PS. You have not commented on my three new antique doubles in another thread here.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
So Morten,

Have you now embraced the splinter fore-end as being "proper"?

Haha Todd,

I should have taken that photo

Then you will see that there is not much difference between my forend and a splinter lengthways, just some wood along the barrel. Jerome told me that the short splinter you find on pre-war doubles will not be strong enough. Too short. I think one reason is that the pre-war box is more wide than my roundbody VC. Then it is more wood from the start on the English splinter - if you understand what I am trying to describe !

I am satisfied with my foreend. The proportions looks nice and it feels right when mounting and aiming. I was surprised about the similarity between my VC and the John Wilkes pre-war. The main difference is the angle of the pistol grip - the pre-war was superb !


Morten

Not strong enough for what? The splinter is just there to keep the barrels on when you open the breach ... not to hold on to under recoil. For that, you hold the barrels!!

Todd, I am not expert in this at all - I just referred to what I was told. Your statement seem to be reasonable. Maybe you should ask Jerome in Dallas ?

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Before you get too far down this path you would be well advised to check in with George, the doyen of double rifles . . . no, no, not that George . . . the other George, the quirky quack from Quebec.

Is that the phone ringing? Need advice? What advice can I give someone who asks the question-What caliber should I use...I am thinking of hunting buffalo or ele with a double? and then shows interest in buying an antique double...

George,

I have told you before that it is no good to make these comments and I urge you to stay away. If you are not able to be constructive and share knowledge or experience I do not want to hear from you !

Capiche ?

And for you others gentlemen; let us stick to the thread and just that !


Morten

Cal and Mike,

thanks for your advice. I have received a couple of PM's too and it seem that you have covered the most.

I am not interested in hammer guns - they do not appeal to me even though I understand there is nothing wrong with quality and shooting ability etc. I asked Jon Biebs about prices. Would be interesting to receive some thoughts about that.

There is also one more thing and that is; what about doubles from the mentioned factories made in the 50 and 60's ? One comment I have received is concerned about steel quality in the pre-war rifles. Where the pre-war rifles hunted ( in general ) that much as they are today ? Today we travel more easy to the dark continent - the hunters obviously did not do that before the wars. Or am I wrong ?

Morten

Morten:
Hunting yes, but hunting took a decline after the war years for a couple of reasons: many hunters and clients were killed in WWII, the world was rebuilding including Africa (I know fighting occurred in North Africa, but men and supplies were drained from the south). Then, came the movements towards majority rule with the anti colonial and anti white attitudes. Through this time (and in pre war days) it was mainly the wealthy who hunted in Africa. It was not the sport of the average income gent. That changed in the 1970s as more and more middle income men went hunting and, with the growth of SCI to promote and publicize this hunting and the record books, it began to get quite popular. And, came game farms, high fences,etc., and that is another rant.

As to rifles and quality. Jim Watts told me quality of the English gun making was in serious decline in the post ware years as so many skilled workers that were killed in the war and those that remained saw their places of employment destroyed in the bombings. It took a generation to train the new gunsmiths. Combine this with the modernization of factories that were bombed came more machines made and less hand made quality. Engraving styles changed over the years and engraving and embellishments were not so fine--they became more course in appearance.

Add to the above the advent of the low cost bolt guns in .458 and other calibers made it easy for the average Joe to afford a safari. Kynoch ceased making ammo for the big nitro express calibers in the 1960s, and reloading components were almost nonexistent. The demand for fine quality double rifles was declining, too, for all of the above reasons. Thankfully, the English gun trade has rebounded to as good as ever and many low cost "posers" are in the market, too.

Sorry you don't like hammer guns. They have a soft spot in my heart, most so in the black powder express calibers. A .577 3 1/4" bpe will do everything a .470 can do. And, personally, I feel the quality was higher in the 1890s than in the 1930s. (My opinion only so go easy, fellas).

Transportation does make it easier to get to Africa today, no doubt. Only wealthy business owners (or Royalty) could sail the oceans and hunt for a month or two. Not the average worker. This is again why there are more hunters today than in the decades past.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Cal

PS. Where the hell is Norwegia? I've been looking at maps and can't find the place.

Thanks Cal - interesting to read. I find knowledge of our history very interesting in every aspect.

With regard to where you find Norway ? It is a tiny little, but long streched country on top of the world. If you take a hike over the ice from Alaska towards Greenland and then Iceland you will bump into Norway before entering into Russia Norway is long streched, rocky and mountainious with long fjords, glaciers and bordering the North Sea, the Atlantic and the Barents Sea to the south and west. In the east we border Russia, Finland and Sweden and it is s ahort boat trip to Denmark in south east.

Put on your glasses and look again on the map


Morten

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Before you get too far down this path you would be well advised to check in with George, the doyen of double rifles . . . no, no, not that George . . . the other George, the quirky quack from Quebec.

Is that the phone ringing? Need advice? What advice can I give someone who asks the question-What caliber should I use...I am thinking of hunting buffalo or ele with a double? and then shows interest in buying an antique double...

George,

I have told you before that it is no good to make these comments and I urge you to stay away. If you are not able to be constructive and share knowledge or experience I do not want to hear from you !

Capiche ?

And for you others gentlemen; let us stick to the thread and just that !


Morten

I am sorry about that Norwegian-my apologies.I thought I was on the receiving end from you a while back about the cow I shot or something else.I could be mistaken.I do not like these attacks either.
As far as cartridge choice If I couldn't own a 500NE I would get a 470NE.

George,

Your apologies accepted. If you make a search you will not find any comments from me on the cow situation. I have just, many months ago, told you more or less the same as above.


Morten

I did a search and could not find anything.Just a couple of things- one reffering to my shooting POI as "rubbish" and a comment on a pole about me from Jines.Again sorry as I must have had you confused with someone else like Dutch44 or Pondoro etc...

Ok George - case closed and history.

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Sorry you don't like hammer guns. They have a soft spot in my heart, most so in the black powder express calibers. A .577 3 1/4" bpe will do everything a .470 can do. And, personally, I feel the quality was higher in the 1890s than in the 1930s. (My opinion only so go easy, fellas).

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
And, personally, I feel the quality was higher in the 1890s than in the 1930s. (My opinion only so go easy, fellas).

I fall into the camp of believing that the "golden age" of the double rifle trade was the period from sometime in the 1920's (post-WWI) through the 1930's (pre-WWII). Double rifle manufacturers had learned a lot over the prior 30-40 years in terms of what went into a quality double. The quality of materials and manufacturing techniques had improved as well. At the same time there was still a crisp focus on quality and craftsmanship, particularly hand craftsmanship. The combination of the foregoing were double rifles that were the epitome of the gunmaker's art. Not that pre-WWI rifles were not works of art too, just that the by the 1920's/1930's the craft really reached its peak in terms of building double rifles that were functional, but more than that, were tributes to the craft.

When it comes to figure out what to bye, it of course depend on your budget. you can pay as you know anything fraom nothing to astronomical prices. I would recomend to set your budget and then start to save as much as you can until you find the right gun. a decent gun of your requierments is not something that apear everyday. so it is important to bee ready when it happends. The more money you have the better the gun you can bye, and maybee you have enough when the right gun apear.

Send mee an pm and we can discuss more closely what you are after and I might bee able to help you.

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Thanks Cal - interesting to read. I find knowledge of our history very interesting in every aspect.

With regard to where you find Norway ? It is a tiny little, but long streched country on top of the world. If you take a hike over the ice from Alaska towards Greenland and then Iceland you will bump into Norway before entering into Russia Norway is long streched, rocky and mountainious with long fjords, glaciers and bordering the North Sea, the Atlantic and the Barents Sea to the south and west. In the east we border Russia, Finland and Sweden and it is s ahort boat trip to Denmark in south east.

Put on your glasses and look again on the map


Morten

My error, Morten. I know where Norway is. I thought a Norwegian might be from a country of Norwegia. My apologies and my error.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal - allow me ...

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:


My error, Morten. I know where Norway is. I thought a Norwegian might be from a country of Norwegia. My apologies and my error.
Cheers,
Cal

I know where Norwegia is. Picture yourself a planet in the far galaxy. It is a place where the sun rarely shines and it hasn´t been be treaded by people from the civilization in many moons. The indigenous people of Norwegia looks very wooly(see chewbacca) but generally present no harm .

Family outing in Norwegia

Now I understand Jens why Denmark let us go in 1905