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Question:
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The poll is too niche I guess to be effective. I don't know where else you would post it. My complaint initially was combo guns were not apart of your double rifle poll. Another member stated that you did not intend to disassociate pdxes from that poll and he considered them double rifles and as such a part of that poll. The pdxes are effective and accurate. You can spend 4k to 40k on them. They shoot a 12 gauge 740gr bullet from 1000 to 1500fps and are still effective bird guns. The big 10's and 8's are powerful DG cartridges.

Well..speaking of paradoxes...I have just finished a talk with a barrelmaker in england , asking what a new set of paradoxbarrels(12 gauge)+ fitting+ regulation would cost. he guessed aprox £6000, if I supplied a good sauer/simson bolstred frame shotgunaction.
I thought later as a future project it could be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Maybe the double rifle forum wasn't the best place to put this.

GRENADIER,IMO, the reason you didn't get a lot of comment on the Paradox guns here, will be the same most places you post it!

The reason is the paradox guns are very rare, and not many are owned by folks who use them, but wh only buy them to complete collections, of a maker's work. If you go to the DSC, or SCI shows where there are many of the double rifles, and combos on display, for sale, you will be lucky to see one paradox in ten shows.

I voted on your poll, but only because I've owned a couple of the paradox (general term, as there are many names for the same type of gun) ball and shot doubles, and they interest me.

My intrest, though falls more to the "BORE" rifle that are shotgun size, but fully rifled, and not intended for shot at all. For the shot/bullet guns I lean toward "CAPE GUNS", and less for drillings, have owned a few of each over the years.

Jens-


Who is the Brit gunbuilder you spoke with?


--Tinker

MacD37, in terms of a real Paradox, then yes, they are quite rare.
However, I own and use 2 ball and shot guns, one by Beretta, the other by Fabarm. Both work quite well, and suited my type of hunting at the time they were purchased.
I eventually went to a BBF combination gun for most of my hunting, but the 'paradoxes' still get a run every now and then. Mostly on fox drives, if there is a chance of a pig...

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Jens-


Who is the Brit gunbuilder you spoke with?


--Tinker

Arthur Smith Of Colchester.

Phone#. oo44 1206 272 354.

Arthur makes the barrels(chopperlumps ofcouse)...only..Somebody else would do the actual gunwork/actionwork + regulating.

Arthur wants £1200 for a set of chopperlumps in 12 bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
MacD37, in terms of a real Paradox, then yes, they are quite rare.
However, I own and use 2 ball and shot guns, one by Beretta, the other by Fabarm. Both work quite well, and suited my type of hunting at the time they were purchased.
I eventually went to a BBF combination gun for most of my hunting, but the 'paradoxes' still get a run every now and then. Mostly on fox drives, if there is a chance of a pig...

Sambar9.3, there are many ball&shot guns in collections in the USA as well, but you rarely see them for sale, and I've never seen one in the hunting field that wasn't mine, in 65 years of hunting. The only place I've seen them being fired were on a firing range, usually at vinteger's meets.

I also hunted with mine, as I do with any firearm I buy. However, among the field of people who like multi-barreled hunting arms, of which I know several who are totally addicted to them, and not one of them owns a ball&shot gun, and many have never owned one, by any maker. Most seem to be either totally double rifle people, or Combination gun folks. There is even a big seperation between O/U, and S/S double rifle, and combo users.

The ball&shot guns IMO are neither fish, nor fowl, and though they are effective, enough for both purposes, they are not particularly good at either job. Still they do have a place in firearms history,and are fun to own, and shoot. IMO, they are more popular with collectors, than hunters! A finely made cape gun, or drilling, especially a double rifle drilling, is far more usefull, IMO!

All I'm saying is, they are simply not often seen in the field, and only rarely on a fireing range!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:



<The ball&shot guns IMO are neither fish, nor fowl, and though they are effective, enough for both purposes, they are not particularly good at either job.>

Quite so. Mine get far more use as a shotgun than as a large bore rifle. They do alright, but a decent shotgun would be just as good, and probably much less expensive...

<A finely made cape gun, or drilling, especially a double rifle drilling, is far more usefull, IMO!>

Oh yes, I agree completely.

I agree, I have only seen five, and I own 2 of those...

I wouldn't swear to it in court, but my impression is that they were meant to be used primarily by explorers mostly as a shotgun, but with the capacity to use a reasonably heavy ball load to put bigger critters in the pot, or for protection.

Not sure how successful that marketing would have been, when you consider that H&H may have been out of a lot of prospective buyers reach, $$$ wise.

JMHO

Its hard to lump these guns all together. I voted. I have one, a super magnum 12 bore by William Evans. With a 735gr bullet at 1500fps it makes a pretty solid gun for thin skinned game, and coming in under 8 lbs makes it very useful for birds too. I was surprised to see how well I could break targets with it. This year I am going to take it up on the high plains and see if I can bag a deer, a turkey and a pheasant or 2. They are very neat and make a nice addition to a collection of British guns.
Steve

[/QUOTE]
The ball&shot guns IMO are neither fish, nor fowl, and though they are effective, enough for both purposes, they are not particularly good at either job. Still they do have a place in firearms history,and are fun to own, and shoot. IMO, they are more popular with collectors, than hunters! A finely made cape gun, or drilling, especially a double rifle drilling, is far more usefull, IMO!

All I'm saying is, they are simply not often seen in the field, and only rarely on a fireing range! [/QUOTE]

Mac,
Are you saying that because you have not seen them used in the field often they are neither fish nor fowl? I know a number of collectors who use or have used their pdxes on game including lion buff and elephant. But that is my interest and birds of a feather.... I met SKB because of our mutual interest in the SME.
Holland took great pains, if you examine their ledger pages and Wembely Shooting notes, To make sure the 12 bores shot 6 or more shots into 4x4 @ 100yds and also had patterning notes to indicate they would shot a modified pattern with # 6 shot.
Westley because of Leslie Taylors great affection for the ball and shot guns took them to another level altogehter with the Explora and Fauneta guns.
I find little difference in the 10 and 8 paradox and the 10 and 8 fully rifled bp guns.
Reloading for them (the 12's in particular) can be somewhat mysterious as the cartridges the guns were regulated for evolved over a 30 year period. Maybe it is too much work for some to get them shooting to their original potential. Oh, Mac, you can't believe any 3 barreld gun shoulders and swings like a Holland?

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:

Oh, Mac, you can't believe any 3 barreld gun shoulders and swings like a Holland? [/QUOTE]

I doubt there many people on this forum who have ever shot a Holland & Holland fire arm of any kind, and fewer yet that ever owned one with that name engraved on it! Admittedly, no three barreled firearm will swing even as well as a Remington 870 shotgun, and that certainly isn't an H&H. However, when the rubber hits the road, and well made cape gun will handle just as well as any shotgun, no matter the name, and the rifle side, in most cases will be far more accurate than a PDox, will with ball, and the shot side being a REAL shotgun,on the cape, will pattern as well as any PDox with shot. If you doubt that, I have a couple of cape guns that swing as well as anything I've ever handled, and are deadly on birds, and will place a Brenneke slug right beside the rifle barrel at 100 yds where it will cut one ragged hole with the rifle side.

I have over the yrs, owned a few ball&shot guns, mostly Westley Richards, and I loved them, for what they were, and the extreme care in their fit and finish, as well as their ability to do their jobs. It is just that their job is simply not done as well as a "ONE PURPOSE" dedicated firearm. GOOD, but still neither fish, nor fowl! All only one old man's opinion, but cheap at the price you paid for it!

There are no facts, only interpretations." - Nietzsche

Mac,
How did your Westley Exploras not perform well as a shotgun? What did you give up when they were used on game? They, (the Exploras) were designed as a 200yd gun and should out perform any slug. I think you give up a lot when using a cape gun just because you have two different cartridges (if using a slug) to stuff in your gun and maybe in a hurry.You have only one shotgun barrel and only one rifle. I can't comment on what you might give up or gain with your rifle cartridge as each different cartridge may have pros and cons. I don't know what a cape would weigh or how it would point.
The Holland and Westley rifled choke guns were designed and refined to be a weapon capable of taking game from snipe to buffalo. I believe they accomplished their goal. Both fish and fowl, a best shotgun, a powerful well regulated double rifle, the best of both worlds. Just my perspective.

gatsbyI'm not downing the PDoxs, but in the final analysis, the PDox is simply a very expensive combination gun. There are many types of combos, and some are simply moreusefull for general hunting than others. After all, no matter the chambering, they are all a compromise in the end. A rifled choke shot barrel will not usually pattern as well as a dedicated shot barrel, with proper chokes, and the smooth barrel with only the last 4" slightly rifled is certainly not going to give the accuracy of a full lenth rifled barrel, with the proper twist for the bullets being used.

There is nothing wrong with any of the Ball & Shot guns, made by good makers. For general walkabout hunting of common game, I'd rather have a well made cape gun, and if I have to use a combo gun for dangerous game, that has a shot barrel, then I'd far rather have a S/S double rifle drilling, chambered for 500NE/500NE/20ga shot barrel on the bottom, with screw in chokes.

It seems to me you are basiclly a bird hunter, who likes to use your, primarily, bird gun, to hunt big game if the occasion should present it's self. Nothing wrong with that, but you and I are 180 degree opposites. My main thing is a purpose dirrected RIFLE, with the chance dove or sand grouse, while hunting Buffalo. With that in mind, I can buy two well made cape guns, or double rifle drillings for less than one real PDox, and IMO, have a better designed firearm!

SO! I guess, we will simply have to agree to disagree, on our choices of combination guns!
.............

gatsbyI'm not downing the PDoxs, but in the final analysis, the PDox is simply a very expensive combination gun. Used guns are out there and several hunters have picked up good guns for 10K and less.There are many types of combos, and some are simply moreusefull for general hunting than others. That is totally subjective. After all, no matter the chambering, they are all a compromise in the end. Situationally, yes, but no other combo fits more situations than a rifled choke gun. A rifled choke shot barrel will not usually pattern as well as a dedicated shot barrel, with proper chokes,That does not seem to be the case with the Holland's and Westleys and probably with all other guns using the rifled choke method and the smooth barrel with only the last 4" slightly rifled is certainly not going to give the accuracy of a full lenth rifled barrel, with the proper twist for the bullets being used. Dead is dead accurate enough for the intended game. I don't have any minute of angle double rifles.
There is nothing wrong with any of the Ball & Shot guns, made by good makers. For general walkabout hunting of common game, I'd rather have a well made cape gun, and if I have to use a combo gun for dangerous game, that has a shot barrel, then I'd far rather have a S/S double rifle drilling, chambered for 500NE/500NE/20ga shot barrel on the bottom, with screw in chokes. That set up is more comparable to a 10 paradox and not very versatile.

It seems to me you are basiclly a bird hunter, who likes to use your, primarily, bird gun, to hunt big game if the occasion should present it's self.I am not a big shotgunner but appreciate a well balanced gun. Nothing wrong with that, but you and I are 180 degree opposites. My main thing is a purpose dirrected RIFLE, with the chance dove or sand grouse, while hunting Buffalo.You are a bore rifle fan, What game are you comfortable hunting with a 7 dram 12 shooting a 750 conical. That is the same as a Westley SME? With that in mind, I can buy two well made cape guns, or double rifle drillings for less than one real PDox, and IMO, have a better designed firearm! No other combo gun provides the hunter with a double rifle and double shot gun that works as well in as many situations as the rifled choke guns.
SO! I guess, we will simply have to agree to disagree, on our choices of combination guns!
I can agree on that..............

I guess the paradoxes had versatillity in mind when invented...Just like the american boy(yeeehaaa) could buy a winchester/colt in the same caliber...

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
I guess the paradoxes had versatillity in mind when invented...Just like the american boy(yeeehaaa) could buy a winchester/colt in the same caliber...

well, similar but that would be the cartridge which has versatility, wouldn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by gatsby:

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
I guess the paradoxes had versatillity in mind when invented...Just like the american boy(yeeehaaa) could buy a winchester/colt in the same caliber...

well, similar but that would be the cartridge which has versatility, wouldn't it?

Precisement...

With a paradox gun, only one caliber is needed..versatillity in gun and cartridge