The quote below is from a string on Nitro Express!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Agreed!!

I just wonder what you would do with three folding leaves...? My early Searcy, same caliber, has a standing rear that shoots dead-nuts on at 100 yards.

Rich

There seems to be a common thinking about the multiple flip-up sights on a double rifle. The general thinking is that these were simply to make the rifle look neat, and are useless. This is certainly not the case, however. These multiple flip-up sights are expensive and are there to be used.

The reason most think this is from two things written by gun writers who do not understand double rifles, with folks repeating this misconception over and over as gospel. The second is that most people think a double rifle is regulated to cross at a certain distance. This second reason is why the gun writer, who also thinks this, writes it in the first place.

I think it is common knowledge on AR, and NE double rifle forums, by most of the long time double rifle people that the double rifle is NOT regulated to cross at any distance. The aiming point is the same windage wise from muzzle to as far down range as the rifle will shoot, just like any iron-sighted rifle. The only adjustment is elevation for down range shooting. If you look at the center line on the back of the standing sight, and all flip-ups they all line up with the only difference the height of the individual flip-up getting increasingly taller as the range increases.

Certainly the group of each barrel will get larger as the range increases just like a single barrel rifle. ( 1 MOA= 1" group @ 100 yds, but becomes 2" group at 200 yds) with that in mind if both barrels shoot 1 MAO and the center of the bores of each are 1" apart then some of the bullets will spill over into the group of the other barrel with the aiming point half way between the centers of each bore, forming a slightly egg shaped composite group, with the aiming point in the center of that composite group. This remains the case down range as well with the centers of each barrel, and the POA remaining the same with only elevation being different.

.........IN OTHER WORDS A PROPERLY REGULATED DOUBLE RIFLE, SHOOTING PROPERLY LOADED CARTRIDGES THE RIFLE SHOOT PARALELLE AND TO THE ELEVATION ENGRAVED ON THE FLIP-UP BEING USED.

.........................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

.........IN OTHER WORDS A PROPERLY REGULATED DOUBLE RIFLE, SHOOTING PROPERLY LOADED CARTRIDGES THE RIFLE SHOOT PARALELLE AND TO THE ELEVATION ENGRAVED ON THE FLIP-UP BEING USED.

.........................

You mean ships don't just sail off the edge of the earth????

MacD37

Well said.

I have actually used the folding leaves on 2 of my double rifles and they certainly work.

I have also adjusted my aim instead of using the folding leaves.

I just think that most of the DR Shooting / Hunting is done where only the
1 standing rear sight can be used.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
MacD37

Well said.

I have actually used the folding leaves on 2 of my double rifles and they certainly work.

I have also adjusted my aim instead of using the folding leaves.

I just think that most of the DR Shooting / Hunting is done where only the
1 standing rear sight can be used.

I agree that if a person knows his rifle he automaticlly holds over for longer shots up to a point. The flip-ups at are the most usefull are the one for ranges where the front ramp hides the target. In many cases you have a target that is standing still, and unaware of the shooter presents when you have time to use the flip-up for a very precise shot from a rest on a smaller target. Many of the Hollis rifles came with a standing sight for 50 or 100 yds depending on the chambering. They had a couple flip-ups as well,for 100Yds od 200yds and a flip-up "LADDER SIGHT" that was adjustable from 250yds to 500yds, and they work if you take time to learn to use them.

The jest of what this thread is about is not can you shoot by hold-over, but are the flip-up sights purely ornamental. NO they are not just for looks, they were meant to be used. The fact is most think they are simply to make the rifle look neat, and so-called gun rag experts keep preaching this misconception.

quote:

gun rag experts keep preaching this misconception

Absolutely!!! Not just in print either. I've heard a few preaching this same idiocy on TV too.

As you said, they are definately not ornamental.


Another good example is the number of leaves on some 318WR's bolt action rifles by WR (and probably others as well).

I have also used those and they are spot on.

My Westley Richards bolt gun .318 has three leaves and a ladder sight that is adjustable out to 1000 yards. I wonder if the purpose of the same is that there was the possibility that the buyer would someday be called into a provincial militia and the conscripts or volunteers would be expected bring their on rifles.... and Westley, et al, knew the lesson of Spion Kop?

Heck, I wouldn't want to be milling around with a group of soldiers on one side of a valley when a few guys across the way with doubles were launching 500 grain .475 bullets at me from the double they got from behind the kitchen door? Sooner or later, somebodys head is going to explode like a watermellon that rolled off a pick up at the big turn on Highway 41.

I'll bet it happened between the Brits and Germans in WWI???

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The reason most think this is from two things written by gun writers who do not understand double rifles, with folks repeating this misconception over and over as gospel. The second is that most people think a double rifle is regulated to cross at a certain distance.

It's interesting this misconception because it was regurgitated by someone on AR a few months back and I had a real go at them for it, which MacD37 backed me up on.

It seems to be one of those perpetuating internet myths that started in the ether and ended up in print or vice versa LOL.

You are full of shit..........

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
You are full of shit..........

Something stuck up your ass considering you posted a similar comment on all the current threads.

Mac,

my post was predicated mainly on the rainbow trajectory of the .470 NE and similar rounds. It has a trajectory similar to the 60 mike-mike mortar round. All the DRs I have seen have a nice big bead or post front for acquiring DG up close. I would expect factory irons to blot out much if not most of the relatively small disabling portions of a Buff's (for instance) anatomy much past 100 yards. I set up a grid target with heavy 1" apart lines at 100 yds. The front blade hides about 6" of the target. Have you ever taken the time to try and quantify the amount of space, width, any of yours cover?

At that distance (100+yds) the standard definition of Dangerous Game is rather thin. DG is, to my notion, dangerous primarily when it is close enough to kill you before you can work the bolt and reload, or fire two rounds from a double and reload.

Nothing to disagree on, just curious as to how useful they are in real life Dangerous Game hunting. Have you had the opportunity to use the folding leaves on any of yours hunting?

Rich

Obviously, I am a Doubles believer; my fourth one is on a UPS truck somewhere between Tennessee and Boise.

On the comment that most people share the misconception that a double rifle is built to 'cross-fire' rides in tandem with the fact that most people don't own and run double rifles!

Also - there seems to be a standard listening of 'what a double rifle is' that they are simply and exclusively dangerous game rifles.
Not so much.

Those stacks of flip-sights work great, and I have 150 year old rifles that hit directly to the sights with properly built ammunition.


On the comment that the presence of 'artillery' style ladder-sights may have something to do with incidental conscription in the field is in many cases right-on.
There were places and times where the sporting hunter was required to have such sighting provisions present on his sporting rifle in order to comply with local regulations.

I would not want to be on the receiving end of a 'mad minute' given from the breech of a .318WR !!



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mac,

my post was predicated mainly on the rainbow trajectory of the .470 NE and similar rounds. It has a trajectory similar to the 60 mike-mike mortar round. All the DRs I have seen have a nice big bead or post front for acquiring DG up close. I would expect factory irons to blot out much if not most of the relatively small disabling portions of a Buff's (for instance) anatomy much past 100 yards. Obviously, I am a Doubles believer; my fourth one is on a UPS truck somewhere between Tennessee and Boise.

You are quite correct that most double rifle beads will cover even the whole animal at long range. That is why most that are fitted with flip-ups, the sights are regulated so that the aiming point id top center of the bead (six o:clock hold), no matter the range. Simply because the 470NE double rifle is primarily a dangerous game rifle, best used for that purpose where the game is close, that being where the animal is dangerous. Still what the flip-ups are for is for long shots at any animal, when all you have in hand is your double. There was a post here on AR a few years ago that told of one of the old elephant hunters who regularly killed camp meat, and bait animals with his double. It seems this guy killed an Imlala doe at 250 yds with his 470NE. To that end I have personally witnessed Tony kill coyotes at just under 300 yds hiting not just once but with each barrel. The first shot a little far back, causeing the coyote to spin in place, and the second barrel put him down for the count. I killed a Cookson's wildebeast with a 500/450NE double at a little over 175 yds with one shot down and out, and a muledeer at over 200ys with one shot with the same rifle, useing a six o;clock hold with a 200 yd flip-up. There is no law that says a double rifle is only good for a DGR, they will kill just about anything you can hit!

Well put, and agreed with; but I am still going to reserve the long shots (100yds+) for the double 9,3x74R. I guess I should thank my lucky stars that I can afford two.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Well put, and agreed with; but I am still going to reserve the long shots (100yds+) for the double 9,3x74R. I guess I should thank my lucky stars that I can afford two.

Rich

Right that is a very good combination! However sometime or other you will find a plains game trophy you can't turn down with only the 470NE in your hands! That is when you may wish you had done some down range practice, with that six o:clock hold!

quote:

The fact is most think they are simply to make the rifle look neat, and so-called gun rag experts keep preaching this misconception.

Some of these "gun rag experts" as you call them, actually have, or had tons of hunting experience.
If you take the time to read Boddington and Taylor, I think you'll find they both have said that the usefullness of multiple flip up sight leaves is really quite limited.
These guys might know something?

IMO many shooters using express sights will have trouble hitting accurately, in hunting situations, anything over 150 yards, and that's being kind.
Worse though is that many, in hunting situations, cannot judge distances with any degree of accuracy beyond 150 yards. (also being kind)
They might look nice, and some might even be filed correctly for the distances marked, but multiple sight leaves will rarely be usefull in the field.

Sage advice, I will be shooting it out to 200 yards just to see for myself. Problem being, if I like the idea of shooting it that far; then I have to ship it and a fair chunk of $$$ to Butch and get one standing and two folding installed and the standing one regulated.

Some days I don't know how I make it...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

The fact is most think they are simply to make the rifle look neat, and so-called gun rag experts keep preaching this misconception.

Some of these "gun rag experts" as you call them, actually have, or had tons of hunting experience.

.........And none of them know everything, and some know very little about double rifles.

First let me welcome you to Accurate Reloading! I see this is your first post here, and since this is a double rifle dedicated forum, I assume you are a double rifle owner, and hunter. In that light let mae also welcome you to DRSS!

I regard to the quote above, The fact is as I said the flip-ups are not useless, and MANY gun rag writers still write some misconceptions about double rifles, and "TONS OF HUNTING EXPERIENCE" as you claim doesn't teach anyone EVERYTHING, except how to hunt! I know people who have hunted with tha same rifle for 60 yrs, and still couldn't tell you how to take the bolt out of it! So much for long time in the hunting field making anyone an expert on the workings of double rifles.

quote:

If you take the time to read Boddington and Taylor, I think you'll find they both have said that the usefullness of multiple flip up sight leaves is really quite limited.
These guys might know something?

5seventy I think I've probably read every writer that has written in a gun magazine, or books on the subject that has been printed in the last 50 yrs, and most who wrote from 1900 up till today. As far as Boddington is concerned I've read him regularly since he started writing,when he was nothing more than a big kid, in both magazines, and have all his books. I am a fan of Boddington, and many others but there are some who simply regergitate words to fill space, and write about things they do not understand. Having said that, I hope that will ease your mind that I have indeed TAKEN THE TIME to read the whole bunch. If time in the field hunting makes anyone an expert on any type rifle, then I must be a genius because I was hunting long before Boddington was born!

What Boddington said is that, as you state,the long range flip-ups usefulness is LIMITED, not that they were useless. I think that LIMITED can be said of just about anything. In fact iron sights are limited in their usefulness and not just on double rifles. However that doesn't mean the iron sights, and flip-ups are simply there to make the rifle look neat. If YOU take the time to learn to use them your post would have taken a different tack, I think. Maybe not, the jury is still out on that one, because nobody here knows you! Nice introduction however!

quote:

IMO many shooters using express sights will have trouble hitting accurately, in hunting situations, anything over 150 yards, and that's being kind.

Again you are correct, but because a shooter can't use the sights properly has nothing to do with if the sight is accurate at the distance engraved on it.

quote:

Worse though is that many, in hunting situations, cannot judge distances with any degree of accuracy beyond 150 yards. (also being kind)
They might look nice, and some might even be filed correctly for the distances marked, but multiple sight leaves will rarely be usefull in the field.

The fact that people might not use the flip-ups has nothing to do with their quality! The premise the writers, and many who read their missinformation, is based on another piece of missinformation! That missinformation is that double rifles are regulated to cross at a given range. If that were a fact, which it isn't, then the flip-ups would indeed be useless. That is not a fact however.

Again welcome to AR, and we are looking forward to your expertise posted here so we can learn more about double rifles. Most of the posters here on double rifle forum have been around double rifles a long time, and been a lot of places to hunt with them. However we are always willing to learn.

........................Congratulations on your fine introduction!

Once upon a time, almost all hunting was done with iron sights.

Even in the 50's through the early 70's, the scope was a very expensive luxury. I've been hunting for over 40 years, and did not acquire a scoped rifle until the late 1980's.

The concept of a scoped double for hunting was a dream until more recent times.

Many hunters, including some of the current crop of gunwriters (Boddington excluded) have little trigger time with iron sights.

Multiple leaf sights do work, as do the high elevation tang sights. Are they as accurateas a scope? No. But when many of these rifles were built, that was the technology of the day. Hunters did not take a battery of rifles to the field for months on end. They had one rifle that had to serve multiple applications.

I remembered tests that were done in the 1800's to determine what the "effective range" was of the caliber of the day - the .45-70. The Sandy Hook tests are described here: http://home.earthlink.net/~sha...yHook/SandyHook.html.

If the sights are properly aligned to the bore, a good marksman could literally rain in shots on a target. As hunters today, we keep our shots within the maximum effective range of the round and our abiity (which, by the way CAN be done with appropriate irons). Not the case 100 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
If the sights are properly aligned to the bore, a good marksman could literally rain in shots on a target.

That's true, especially at the rifle range where exact distances are already known, but how many would truely qualify as "good marksmen" if put to the test under hunting conditions?
It's not about how effective open sights are, but more about how many hunters are really capable of judging distance, and what is their true ability with open sights at extreme ranges.

quote:

my post was predicated mainly on the rainbow trajectory of the .470 NE and similar rounds.

This brings up something I have never understood. Does a bullet actually rise then start dropping after it leaves the barrel or does it start dropping immediately?

Is it a case of the barrel and sight alignment where the sights are pointed down and the barrel is pointed up?

Somehow I cannot understand how a bullet could rise after going through the straight barrel.

Allen,

Lots of "debate" on that topic.

Bullets start out and follow the axis of the barrel, and drop from there.

Pretty good explanation here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

If the barrel is fired paralles to the earth the bullet starts to fall the moment it leaves the barrel.

To hit a target at a distance the line of bore is elevated.

My doubles do not cross. I have shot my 9,3 on paper to 300 yards.

My 450 No2 and my 450/400 on rocks to 300 yards...

The flip up sights on my Old British doubles are spot on, at least to 300 yards.

I have fliped them up to make a few longer shots on game. The 400 on caribou and the 450 No2 on Giraffe.

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:

quote:

my post was predicated mainly on the rainbow trajectory of the .470 NE and similar rounds.

This brings up something I have never understood. Does a bullet actually rise then start dropping after it leaves the barrel or does it start dropping immediately?

Is it a case of the barrel and sight alignment where the sights are pointed down and the barrel is pointed up?

Somehow I cannot understand how a bullet could rise after going through the straight barrel.

Allen

As has already been posted, a bullet starts dropping immediately it leaves the barrel so all guns have to have their sights set to ‘lob’ the bullet to hit the target. This ‘lobbing’ effect is not as pronounced as say a mortar or artillery round but is exactly the same principal and the faster the velocity of the bullet the less ‘lobbing’ effect (due to the flatter trajectory) is needed. The rate a bullet drops over a given distance is dependent on the time of flight to the target. This is influenced by tail or head winds and bullet shape.

The effect of gravity in pulling the bullet to the ground is why you have to be careful when shooting steeply uphill or downhill, another phenomenon not understood by a lot of shooters and where even though you have sighted in to ‘lob’ your bullet on target, unexplained misses can happen with uphill and downhill shooting.

The pulling effect of gravity is vertical. Most shooters sight in their firearms horizontally so if you hung a plumb bob off, say the sling eye, it would be pointed near enough straight down. As you elevate the muzzle or point it down toward the ground the plumb bob gives you an idea of the direction of the pull of gravity on the bullet. The steeper up or down you point the barrel the less gravity is pulling the bullet straight down to the ground hence the less ‘lobbing’ effect you need to get to the target.

Of course most times if using a double you will not be in steep country so this phenomenon is generally only of significance to long range hunters in the hills. Then again if you wished to knock over a mountain goat with your double you will have to consider your trajectory carefully.

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:

quote:

my post was predicated mainly on the rainbow trajectory of the .470 NE and similar rounds.

This brings up something I have never understood. Does a bullet actually rise then start dropping after it leaves the barrel or does it start dropping immediately?

Is it a case of the barrel and sight alignment where the sights are pointed down and the barrel is pointed up?

Somehow I cannot understand how a bullet could rise after going through the straight barrel.

Technically, the sights are pointed right at your target but the barrel is angled upward a certain amount. As a result the bullet exits the barrel with some amount of upward, vertical velocity.

It does not immediately start to drop, in fact it is climbing. Rather it is immediately subjected to a downward acceleration from gravity. Think of this like hitting the brakes on a car. The car's velocity begins to decrease, but it takes time to come to a stop. Gravity is like putting the brakes on to slow the upward climb of the bullet.

The bullet will continue to climb until this downward acceleration reduces the upward velocity to zero, and then to negative... at which point the bullet truly begins to drop.

Unlike the car analogy, once the brakes get you to zero velocity, gravity doesn't stop there. It keeps on decelerating straight down until you hit the ground. It's as if your car's brakes brought you to a stop and then started accelerating you back down the road from where you just came until you smash into your garage door.

In other words, if you took your perfectly regulated double rifle (or perfectly sighted single) into orbit (without gravity), and fired it at a target 100yds away, the bullet would hit high, and continue to climb indefinitely.

Very good thread - lot's of valaid points and experience.

I for one want the fewest moving parts as possible, thus prefer one fixed heavy duty rear sight on my DRs.

That stated, If / when I order another bespoken English, or other fine double you can be rest assured that it will have at least 2-3 flip-ups on it. There are traditionalists that will stand for nothing less - important if one plans to sell down the road.

For me personally, I do not intend to make many shots past 50 yds. I do practice hold overs out to 100 before every trip. Conversely, I spend a whole lot more time on shot placement practice inside of 50 and even some as close as 5!

Has saved my butt thus far!

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Very good thread - lot's of valaid points and experience.

I for one want the fewest moving parts as possible, thus prefer one fixed heavy duty rear sight on my DRs.

That stated, If / when I order another bespoken English, or other fine double you can be rest assured that it will have at least 2-3 flip-ups on it. There are traditionalists that will stand for nothing less - important if one plans to sell down the road.

For me personally, I do not intend to make many shots past 50 yds. I do practice hold overs out to 100 before every trip. Conversely, I spend a whole lot more time on shot placement practice inside of 50 and even some as close as 5!

Has saved my butt thus far!

JW

I totally agree. I think guys are better off practising and learning how to get the best from their doubles at moderate distances, rather than worrying about raising the 300 yard leaf on their multiple flip ups, and blazing away at an animal which they can barely see.
The other day I saw a photo of a Westley magazine rifle which had eight sights, one standing and no less than seven folding!
Taylor commented that he reckoned WR must have had a psychologist working for them, because the multiple flip-up sights sure did appear to help to sell guns.

AND one of those gun rag experts, was Elmer Keith... Even he wrote that DR's cross at predetermined distances.

Then again, he wrote a lot of dumb stuff...

DM

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
I totally agree. I think guys are better off practising and learning how to get the best from their doubles at moderate distances, rather than worrying about raising the 300 yard leaf on their multiple flip ups, and blazing away at an animal which they can barely see.
The other day I saw a photo of a Westley magazine rifle which had eight sights, one standing and no less than seven folding!
Taylor commented that he reckoned WR must have had a psychologist working for them, because the multiple flip-up sights sure did appear to help to sell guns.

I totally agree as well that almost all shooting done with any iron sighted rifle can be done with the one standing rear sight. However, that was not the question posted in this thread!

The thread was asking the question for nothing more than a yes or no basic question: Are the multiple flip-up rear sights only there to make the rifle look neat as some writers claim, or are they functional? It didn't ask if anyone could use them or not, but that would apply to any sighting system, if the person useing them couldn't use them properly.

The fact is on most well made rifles, so fitted, they are fully functional, and the difinitive answer to the orgenal question is YES they are functional, not just ornimentation. NOW. whether the owner knows how to use them, or should use them, is another matter all together. Many people can do some amazing shooting with iron sights, and I know some who can't hit the walls of a barn from the inside, but the sights are not to blame.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


I totally agree as well that almost all shooting done with any iron sighted rifle can be done with the one standing rear sight. However, that was not the question posted in this thread!

The thread was asking the question for nothing more than a yes or no basic question: Are the multiple flip-up rear sights only there to make the rifle look neat as some writers claim, or are they functional? It didn't ask if anyone could use them or not, but that would apply to any sighting system, if the person useing them couldn't use them properly.

The fact is on most well made rifles, so fitted, they are fully functional, and the difinitive answer to the orgenal question is YES they are functional, not just ornimentation.

Mac, I cannot see anywhere in your post at the beginning of this thread where you have "asked a question" concerning the multiple flip up sights.

Here is your post, can you point out where this "yes no" question is please?

quote:

There seems to be a common thinking about the multiple flip-up sights on a double rifle. The general thinking is that these were simply to make the rifle look neat, and are useless. This is certainly not the case, however. These multiple flip-up sights are expensive and are there to be used.

The reason most think this is from two things written by gun writers who do not understand double rifles, with folks repeating this misconception over and over as gospel. The second is that most people think a double rifle is regulated to cross at a certain distance. This second reason is why the gun writer, who also thinks this, writes it in the first place.

I think it is common knowledge on AR, and NE double rifle forums, by most of the long time double rifle people that the double rifle is NOT regulated to cross at any distance. The aiming point is the same windage wise from muzzle to as far down range as the rifle will shoot, just like any iron-sighted rifle. The only adjustment is elevation for down range shooting. If you look at the center line on the back of the standing sight, and all flip-ups they all line up with the only difference the height of the individual flip-up getting increasingly taller as the range increases.

Certainly the group of each barrel will get larger as the range increases just like a single barrel rifle. ( 1 MOA= 1" group @ 100 yds, but becomes 2" group at 200 yds) with that in mind if both barrels shoot 1 MAO and the center of the bores of each are 1" apart then some of the bullets will spill over into the group of the other barrel with the aiming point half way between the centers of each bore, forming a slightly egg shaped composite group, with the aiming point in the center of that composite group. This remains the case down range as well with the centers of each barrel, and the POA remaining the same with only elevation being different.

.........IN OTHER WORDS A PROPERLY REGULATED DOUBLE RIFLE, SHOOTING PROPERLY LOADED CARTRIDGES THE RIFLE SHOOT PARALELLE AND TO THE ELEVATION ENGRAVED ON THE FLIP-UP BEING USED.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


I totally agree as well that almost all shooting done with any iron sighted rifle can be done with the one standing rear sight. However, that was not the question posted in this thread!

The thread was asking the question for nothing more than a yes or no basic question: Are the multiple flip-up rear sights only there to make the rifle look neat as some writers claim, or are they functional? It didn't ask if anyone could use them or not, but that would apply to any sighting system, if the person useing them couldn't use them properly.

The fact is on most well made rifles, so fitted, they are fully functional, and the difinitive answer to the orgenal question is YES they are functional, not just ornimentation.

Mac, I cannot see anywhere in your post at the beginning of this thread where you have "asked a question" concerning the multiple flip up sights.

Here is your post, can you point out where this "yes no" question is please?

5seventy, the whole thread is asking that question! No I did not as the "YES OR NO" question but the whole thread was asking if the writers are correct, or not when writing that the multiple flip-ups are only onimental, or do they work, don't you think?

Maybe I'm silly for thinking that most people here can simply assume that the question is are the writers correct, or not!

If someone wrote that a particular scope was only there to make the rifle look neat, or if the iron sights on a saddle gun were there only to make the rifle look neat,would you reply that most couldn't use them properly? If they were deemed useless because the owner didn't know how to use them, he would be laughed off of the web-site. How doesn't this also apply to any type irons on a double rifle?

quote:

My Westley Richards bolt gun .318 has three leaves and a ladder sight that is adjustable out to 1000 yards. I wonder if the purpose of the same is that there was the possibility that the buyer would someday be called into a provincial militia and the conscripts or volunteers would be expected bring their on rifles.... and Westley, et al, knew the lesson of Spion Kop?

Yes. And no. Two reasons:

1) If sighted to 1,000 yards it is a rifle specifically for the African market. As practice was to fire three or four rounds into a herd of wild animals (at distance) and then send the "boys" to collect the killed animals for meat for the camp.

As this wasn't done in India a rifle without these 1,000 yard sights then it could be either a rifle for the Indian market or one for Africa where this long range meat killing ability wasn't required.

2) An officer in a British regiment was entitled to have his personal rifle sent with the regiment (at public expense) if it was sighted to 1,000 yards. If it was not so sighted then the officer had to arrange to have it sent with the regiment at his own expense.

Hope this helps?

Another thought on folding leaves...

If your standing rear sight was to take a hard knock, and get broken, it might not damage the folding leaves. Then you could flip one up and continue to hunt.

If you have flipp up leaves, by all means flip them up and give them a test.

My 450/400 3 1/4", has a standing sight marked 50 yards.

It has flip up's for 100,200,300,and 400 yards.

The LEFT barrel is engraved "This barrel is accurate with the sights to 400 yards"

The RIGHT barrel is engraved "This barrel is accurate with the left at 50 yards".

Think about it.

Can you figure out why???

Mac,
If the "subliminal" yes no question is, are they usefull, my answer is yes, that I feel they can be usefull in certain limited situations.
Having said that, anyone who has hunted in heavy jungle or similar, with a double rifle which has multiple folding sight leaves, will soon learn to dislike them.
They are a true bitch when you have to force your way through tangled scrub. Those fancy folding leaves will regularly get snagged, and if you don't check them often, you can end up with one, two or the whole lot of them being raised when you don't want them raised.
They are often quite feeble in construction when compared to the fixed standing sight, and it's not that hard to end up bending them in heavy scrub hunting situations.
For the guy who hunts in light scrub or open/semi open ground, who can accurately judge distance, and who can shoot accurately in hunting conditions over very long range, they would be usefull.
In heavy, thick bush situations they are nothing more than an PITA and a rifle is better off without them.
They usually function perfectly in the gunroom however.
A single 50 or 100 yard fixed standing sight is in my opinion a far better choice for a double to be used in most conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
Mac,
If the "subliminal" yes no question is, are they usefull, my answer is yes, that I feel they can be usefull in certain limited situations.
Having said that, anyone who has hunted in heavy jungle or similar, with a double rifle which has multiple folding sight leaves, will soon learn to dislike them.
They are a true bitch when you have to force your way through tangled scrub. Those fancy folding leaves will regularly get snagged, and if you don't check them often, you can end up with one, two or the whole lot of them being raised when you don't want them raised.
They are often quite feeble in construction when compared to the fixed standing sight, and it's not that hard to end up bending them in heavy scrub hunting situations.
For the guy who hunts in light scrub or open/semi open ground, who can accurately judge distance, and who can shoot accurately in hunting conditions over very long range, they would be usefull.
In heavy, thick bush situations they are nothing more than an PITA and a rifle is better off without them.
They usually function perfectly in the gunroom however.
A single 50 or 100 yard fixed standing sight is in my opinion a far better choice for a double to be used in most conditions.

5seventy, I totally agree with you on every thing you said about the mulitple flip-up sights, having every one of those draw-backs. With all that verbage you failed to address the origenal question! Are they functional, or only onimental? The writers say, and a lot of people believe they are only ornimental, and do not work as claimed by the makers. I say they are functional even with all their draw-backs.

NOW the question you have answered is: Are they desirable?, and it seems your answer to THAT question is NO! My answer to that same question is it is personal choice, but in any event they remain functional if used properly, and are not strictly ornimental, as most believe!
....................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
Mac,
If the "subliminal" yes no question is, are they usefull, my answer is yes, that I feel they can be usefull in certain limited situations.
Having said that, anyone who has hunted in heavy jungle or similar, with a double rifle which has multiple folding sight leaves, will soon learn to dislike them.
They are a true bitch when you have to force your way through tangled scrub. Those fancy folding leaves will regularly get snagged, and if you don't check them often, you can end up with one, two or the whole lot of them being raised when you don't want them raised.
They are often quite feeble in construction when compared to the fixed standing sight, and it's not that hard to end up bending them in heavy scrub hunting situations.
For the guy who hunts in light scrub or open/semi open ground, who can accurately judge distance, and who can shoot accurately in hunting conditions over very long range, they would be usefull.
In heavy, thick bush situations they are nothing more than an PITA and a rifle is better off without them.
They usually function perfectly in the gunroom however.
A single 50 or 100 yard fixed standing sight is in my opinion a far better choice for a double to be used in most conditions.

5seventy, I totally agree with you on every thing you said about the mulitple flip-up sights, having every one of those draw-backs. With all that verbage you failed to address the origenal question! Are they functional, or only onimental? The writers say, and a lot of people believe they are only ornimental, and do not work as claimed by the makers. I say they are functional even with all their draw-backs.

NOW the question you have answered is: Are they desirable?, and it seems your answer to THAT question is NO! My answer to that same question is it is personal choice, but in any event they remain functional if used properly, and are not strictly ornimental, as most believe!
....................

Mac,
Read my post.
I have answered the question.
It's right there in front of you.

quote:

are they usefull, my answer is yes

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

are they usefull, my answer is yes

Thank you!