It is a sidelock...but not a Purdey..

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100500717

Take a look at his other listings. Virtually all of them seem high to me, e.g., a Remington M700 in .375 H&H for $1300. He has been around for a while but I have never done business with him. Maybe he likes to leave himself plenty of room to negotiate.

Dr. Drake has never been shy about the pricing of his guns and rifles; and he has a reputation of finding some of the best of the best to sell to collectors who have the ability to pay for the best.

This particular rifle appears to have been made on the famous Scott "WR" action and includes their screw grip top lever works. My friend Jack Rowe, retired English gunmakers, states that in his opinion that English rifles built on the Scott screw grip action are the strongest ever built in that country.

This rifle does indeed appear to be pristine, and if it is as good as it looks, many people will be very interested in owning it.

The price asked is not excessive for such quality.

Kindest Regards;
Steve Howell

You may be rigth there Steve, but boy has prices gone through the roof...

The dealers with the clientele price accordingly.
Cal

As Cal said Lewis Drake generally caters to the high end collectors who trust that he can find the best of the best.

Dutch

Poor and middle class peons are not welcome in that game. I am also shocked by the prices, but I am not not in the same class of people that don't blink at them. Those people truly have a different mindset when it comes to spending money; I know some of them.

The proof marks are interesting.

The Crown over R mark indicates that the gun has been submitted for re-proofing for some reason.

Also the Cordite 60 400 MAX marks show proofing was done sometime prior to 1955.

The 16.5 TONS per []" set of marks indicate that the gun was proofed sometime after 1955 as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:

This particular rifle appears to have been made on the famous Scott "WR" action and includes their screw grip top lever works.

...............................

This rifle does indeed appear to be pristine, and if it is as good as it looks, many people will be very interested in owning it.

The price asked is not excessive for such quality.

In my opinion that gun is not built on the Webley and Scott W&R action.

The W&R featured the "Webley Patent Screw Treble Grip" top fastener and the gun shown in that link does not have that type of top fastener.
It features a dolls head with third bite, but it is not a screw grip.

Edited to add....

It appears to be a high grade gun, and I agree with you on condition for sure.

I don't think Bonehill (or Webley and Scott) had much to do with building it though.

570;

Your note prompted me to return to Drake's website and this time look at all the photos of the rifle, including the last two photos. Clearly the next to the last photo shows a dolls head extension as you stated. I also revisited the sidelock photos and the rear of the locks do not exhibit the length/size of a typical WR action.

I now must say I do not know what action this rifle is made on. I will have to view it some more.

Yes, Bonehill was known for 3 and 4 tier quality BLNE than best quality SLE guns and rifles.

Kindest Regards;
Steve Howell

I have viewed the photos more and the action looks like what became the Holland & Holland standard SLE action-that was developed jointly by Stephen Grant and Holland.

However, I e-mailed a link of the rifle to Douglas Tate, author of "Birmingham Gunmakers" and others books; and asked him to let us know who he thinks made the superb rifle. Douglas live out in Oregon now and unless he is off bird shooting, maybe we will hear from him soon. He sometimes gets back to me in the same day with a response in the same day.

Major H.L. Howell R.A.M.C. was posted to India before the Great War(a Captain in the medical corps then) and from what I can find it seems that he was posted to France during that terrible war. He made not have returned from France and that could be the reason for the outstanding condition of his rifle today.

Kindest Regards;

Steve Howell

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:

This particular rifle appears to have been made on the famous Scott "WR" action and includes their screw grip top lever works.

...............................

This rifle does indeed appear to be pristine, and if it is as good as it looks, many people will be very interested in owning it.

The price asked is not excessive for such quality.

In my opinion that gun is not built on the Webley and Scott W&R action.

The W&R featured the "Webley Patent Screw Treble Grip" top fastener and the gun shown in that link does not have that type of top fastener.
It features a dolls head with third bite, but it is not a screw grip.

Edited to add....

It appears to be a high grade gun, and I agree with you on condition for sure.

I don't think Bonehill (or Webley and Scott) had much to do with building it though.

Agree.
Not a screw grip but a doll's head with third bite, as described in the ad.
Surely, a very high grade double, especially for a Bonehill.
The reproofs are interesting especially for a gun in such high condition.
The leather covered pad and spacer is pretty recent IMO which probably means the case has been revised to fit the gun.
I think the name will hurt the price regardless of the inherent quality of the rifle simply because Bonehill was not known for high grade guns and it will probably sell in the $35-45K range.
That said, if it had the name of one of the makers held in higher regard (H&H, Purdey, Jeffery, Rigby) it would have sold already.

Transvaal and Huvius,
It is an interesting double, that's for certain, and one that I'd be happy to have in my safe. Especially if it could be bought for Bonehill price!

But pricewise it's WAY out of my range.

As far as the maker goes, my money is on Jeffery, which means it might have come from Leonard.

Huvius and 570;

The proof markings and serial number are interesting indeed. If I could read the Birmingham reproof mark (crossed scepters) I could tell what year it was reproofed, as the serial number (according to vol 3 of Brown's book on British guns) places it as being originally build between 1894 and somewhere around 1900. I also cannot read the markings of the flat near the breech end--"J something" maybe. Birmingham had many gunmakers during that time frame who could and did make guns and rifles of this quality for the likes of Holland's, Evans and others .

Regards;
Steve Howell

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
Huvius and 570;

I also cannot read the markings of the flat near the breech end--"J something" maybe. .

I think that is the Arm and Scepter over the letters NP, which would be the London Nitro Powder proof mark.

Gentlemen;

I received a reply from author Doug Tate concerning my question as to the maker of this rifle.

His response: "Hello Steve; What a magnificent piece of work. I would say that the rifle was made by Leonard or even Bonehill themselves, as I have seen other guns by Bonehill with lobate fences. I have asked Robin Brown to take a look and see what he thinks and send us his response. Doug."

The Robin Brown is the last of the A.A. Brown gunmakers still working and building guns near Birmingham. I hope we hear soon from Robin.

Kindest regards;
Steve Howell

Robin Brown, owner of AA Brown & Sons, Birmingham says that his best guess is that the rifle was made by Bonehill as they had a large factory and many gunsmiths; and if it was built out Leonard would be the most likely suspects.

Regards;
Steve Howell

Thanks for clarifying this for us, Transvaal and Huvius.

Dutch

I'm Really amazed at the knowledge on here with respect to doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Transvaal:
Robin Brown, owner of AA Brown & Sons, Birmingham says that his best guess is that the rifle was made by Bonehill as they had a large factory and many gunsmiths; and if it was built out Leonard would be the most likely suspects.

Regards;
Steve Howell

This gun has just about everything in design and build, that the pinless sidelock DR's that were built by or for Jeffery had.
Leonard is known to have built many guns for Jeffery, so as stated earlier, my money is on Leonard as the maker.

Of course if Leonard built the gun, there will be a (Leonard) number stamped on the bottom rib.

Jack Rowe, retired English gunmaker and late of the gun trade of Birmingham, told a few years ago that when he was working in Birmingham he was told by some of his older colleagues (Jack is 83 now) that each year Jeffery would come up to Birmingham and visit some of the gun and rifle makers soliciting bids from them, and that the maker with the lowest bid built the guns and rifles for Jeffery needs the following year. Jack said further that his older colleagues told him that the Jeffery brothers were real tighwads. Jack began to work as a 14 year old in Birmingham.

Regards;
Steve Howell

All good and very interesting information Steve, thanks for posting it.

Regardless of who the original maker was, based on the photos, it sure does appear to be a lovely rifle, and in very good condition.

570;

The work on this rifle just looks to good to be a Bonehill to me. My guess is that it is a Leonard as well.

Regards;
Steve

I guess you can ASK anything you want to ASK...question is WHEN do you want your rifle to sell.....today, tomorrow or 2 years from now!!
Yes, some of this is true on the extreme collector....but I just finished up the Beinfeld Antique and Collectors show....there was more PRICING at more than my first HOME than I could believe!!...Doubles, Win Levers and a Few Bolt guns!!
A new characteristic I noted this year, all of the BIG BROKERS were wearing GOLD ROLEX watches!! HUMMMMMM??
The real question is what do they really sell for??
Seems to me that Double prices are moderating, and really never reached the ASKING/SALE levels advertised....some got buried in bad buys...and now just sit there with high prices trying to recover.
Be Aware!!
Cheers,

Drake's pricing is nutty not just on rifles but also on everything from furniture to ashtrays. What I made a little hobby of years ago was looking for things Drake sells on the web-sites of the actual manufacturers...to see how much they are marked up to "a new retail above full retail"...just for those who are either A) too rich to care B) Too gullible or C) Both

IT's NOT just Dr. Drake.....he also sells associated stuff, check out Kevin's for comparison....but all of the big brokers now seem to price like that.

If I really wanted some of their merchandise, I simply don't know how to approach them....without feeling embarrassed....so I don't!!

Cheers,