I think it was MacD37 that said "re-regulation" wasn't the right term to apply to even a good Sabatti, that in reality they were never regulated in the first place. I think he's right. Sabatti just didn't finish the job. When I settle on a load I'm sending mine to Aaron to be properly regulated.

I have an earlier serial number rifle without ground muzzles. While it will shoot factory ammo into 2-3" groups at 50 yds, the barrels cross and that bothers me. With all the various handloads I have tried, anything other than a 500 grain Horn RN (nor DGX) at 1900 fps crosses. I don't like that. I can't use the rifle for what I want if I don't have a 150-200 yd effective range with it.

I have settled on a bullet, the Barnes 450 TSX. This bullet will work on any critter requiring a soft point. If later I need a solid I'll work up some Barnes 450 banded solids. I expect I'll be using RL-17. I am currently working up loads with RL-17 to find my desired velocity and find good groups for each barrel--Aaron can then bring the groups together.

The upper target is 90 grains and the lower 92. The 92 grain loaded yielded 2148 fps with an ES of 12 through my Oehler 35P. Groups were at 50 yds and shot of the custom standing shooting bench I built earlier this year.

As you can see, each barrel shoots okay by itself, but the barrels cross and the rifle needs regulation. Most of the 120 rounds I have fired through this rifle have grouped this way. The good news is even after re-regulation, I'll only have $5K in this rifle, yet it will be a reliable and capable tool.

Try more of a slower powder; my 450 will do the same thing unless you use 96 grains of imr 4831, then it comes right onto target. Seems the faster powders don't give the same amount of barrel flip that 4831 does.

Does the same thing with H4831SC and H4350. I have tried 480 DGX, Speer 400s, Hornady 350s and Hornady 500s. The only load that didn't cross was the Hornady 500s with H4931SC at 1900 FPs or less. I guess I haven't tried the 450 TSX with H4831SC, though its hard to think it wouldn't cross as well.

MIne only works with IMR; not H; it is different. And 480 grainers. Your 450s, with the faster powders, don't have enough barrel time and therefore, cross.
Maybe.
How does it shoot with Hornady factory ammo? I think they were factory fired with that.

They cross as well at 50 yds. 2-3" composite groups.

Ok, looks like the Sab worker got it to shoot within 2 inches at 50 and called it good; didn't care about crossing.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, looks like the Sab worker got it to shoot within 2 inches at 50 and called it good; didn't care about crossing.

I agree and I doubt very many other rounds were fired before or after those two shots.

This situation is the reason I have said many times that the test targets that come with most double rifles are useless, and are nothing more than window dressing.

They are usually only two shots, and neither is labeled as to what barrel they came from. All they tell the buyer is that two bullets hit the target.

The target is useless unless it tells you which barrel each bullet came from because one needs to know if they are crossing or shooting wide. Additionally a two shot target doesn’t tell you the CENTER of each barrel’s individual group, a fact that is very important to assess proper regulation.

If each barrel is shooting a one inch four shot group, and there is only ½ inch between the bore centers of both barrels some of each barrel’s four shot group will spill over into the opposing barrels group to form a proper composite group of both barrels.

As I have said many times it is the CENTERS of each barrel’s individual group that you want to move not individual bullet holes! So the two shots on the test target even if labeled only tell those two bullets crossed, or shot wide when the centers of each barrels groups may or may not have crossed.

I know some here are sick of reading this and I hate to sound like a broken record but I consider these things important! Especially to a person who is new to double rifles.

.....................................................................

David Powell told me 15 years ago to put up two targets, one for each barrel, it explains a lot.

Mac,

I may have just finally grasped what you've been saying all along. Although I'm far from being a scientist, I assumed a convergence was definitely going to happen, and a crossing later.

Explaining the barrels almost as two free standing rifles made it work in my stubborn mind.

Thanks.

Yes, it is important, but unfortunately, not how most of the popular brands are made; not in the below $15K price range anyway. From my experience, they are regulated as advertised; usually 2 shots within 2 inches at 50 or 60 meters. Period. Once that is achieved, they ship the rifle, no matter what the orientation of the shots is. And from the Chapuis' I have owned, their regulation targets are useless even then; way too many of them do not shoot at all, and mynew 8mm is back in France right now, for the last 6 months.. Everyone wants their shots to never cross; good luck with that. Oh, my Searcy 450 is good; it will shoot independent groups a half inch apart, right barrel on the right side and left barrel on the left side. That is rare, from what I see and own.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
They cross as well at 50 yds. 2-3" composite groups.

I would like to know if you have shot this rifle @ 100 yrds? & how much did it cross? & how are you shooting it? of a bench or a standing rest?

Haven't shot it at 100 yds. No point with the way the barrels are crossing. I build a standing bench rest. Very stable and comfortable. The second pic is of the slow factory ammo I got from Jorge for cheap. The other box of factory ammo I shot (Horn DGX) went 170 fps faster, which for my gun makes the crossing dispersion worse.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, looks like the Sab worker got it to shoot within 2 inches at 50 and called it good; didn't care about crossing.

I agree and I doubt very many other rounds were fired before or after those two shots.

This situation is the reason I have said many times that the test targets that come with most double rifles are useless, and are nothing more than window dressing.

They are usually only two shots, and neither is labeled as to what barrel they came from. All they tell the buyer is that two bullets hit the target.

The target is useless unless it tells you which barrel each bullet came from because one needs to know if they are crossing or shooting wide. Additionally a two shot target doesn’t tell you the CENTER of each barrel’s individual group, a fact that is very important to assess proper regulation.

If each barrel is shooting a one inch four shot group, and there is only ½ inch between the bore centers of both barrels some of each barrel’s four shot group will spill over into the opposing barrels group to form a proper composite group of both barrels.

As I have said many times it is the CENTERS of each barrel’s individual group that you want to move not individual bullet holes! So the two shots on the test target even if labeled only tell those two bullets crossed, or shot wide when the centers of each barrels groups may or may not have crossed.

I know some here are sick of reading this and I hate to sound like a broken record but I consider these things important! Especially to a person who is new to double rifles.

.....................................................................

Mac,

I have seen you post this many times. It is correct. I guess I don't get what would be so hard to understand about the centers of the groups being the reference point and the need for six shot groups (three from each barrel) to properly assess where exactly each barrel is printing. If you are getting shots from each barrel close together then a pair of shots from each barrel might be adequate, but in reality, finding the group center of a double is no different than finding the group center of a single--except you need to do it for each barrel.

quote:

By INTJ:
If you are getting shots from each barrel close together then a pair of shots from each barrel might be adequate, but in reality, finding the group center of a double is no different than finding the group center of a single--except you need to do it for each barrel.

It is true that two bullet hole close would be OK at the distance engraved on the standing real sight. I know many people who have used double rifles for years regulated just that way. They think their double is perfectly regulated if all shots from both barrels make one ragged hole, right on the aiming point on the target, at the range on the standing rear sight their rifle is shooting properly.

For the way they use their rifle it is, but that doesn’t mean it is properly regulated. The rifle may have been properly regulated physically, but the load they are using is not shooting to the regulation built into the rifle, because if the are printing one ragged hole the rifle is crossing at that range, and will cross wider as it goes down range. Add the crossing to the size of each barrels individual group also getting wider a it goes down range the pattern it leave on a target at twice the distance engraved on that back sight will look more like a shotgun pattern than a rifle group.

Loaded this way is why most think a double rifle is only useful at the range on that rear sight, and that is not so. Once regulated properly, and shooting proper loads a double rifle is just as accurate at 200 yds as any single barreled rifle with like sights and chambering. This is the reason the moving of the group centers to equal distances on each side of the aiming point equal to half the distance between the centers of the bores of both barrels on the target at the range on the standing back sight.

Of course the above is in a perfect world, so one must accept something as close to perfect as he can get. Even when he finds that sweet spot, the next time he loads the ammo the powder may be from a different lot, and will be a little off, and so the centers will shift a tiny amount both ways over time but will always be close with the same load recipe and will give the owner a workable 200 yd hunting rifle! That doesn’t mean it will be a P-Dog gun at 200 yds but will be fine for hunting any game as big or bigger than a whitetail deer. There are several double rifle shooters here on AR who have shot much smaller targets at distances far past 200 yds. Thing like coyotes and head shots on wart hogs with their double rifle, and Tony Black does it several time per year, and Todd Williams has his doubles shooting to very long range.
.......Have a nice new year Mac >>>===(x)===>

DRs actually regulated like that are rare, in my experience. Most are just adjusted to plunk two bullets into 2 inches at 50 meters. And as far as a DG rifle goes, I doubt any PH will let you shoot DG past that anyway.

There is no doubt my rifle, as it came from Sabatti, with Hornady factory ammo would have been adequate for DG. 2-3" groups at 50 yds is fine, even with barrels crossing. In fact, unless you know to look for crossing you might never know. However, I am never satisfied with adequate. I want to be able to use this rifle for deer, black bear, elk, and hogs so I can become very used to it. I want a 200 yd effective distance, and for that it needs proper regulation.