quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Rimless cartridges are disfavored by most double rifles afficianodos.

The rifle ought to be selling at a substantial discount.

I shoot two rimless, belted cartridge double rifles, a 458wm and a 375H&H and I have had no issues. I am more than confident enough to hunt elephants at very close range with my 458wm, have done so many times, will do so in the fututure many times, God willing.

Stepping back a bit, I am usure if you know why some frown on rimless cartridges in double rifles, so I will briefly explain the two major areas of concern.

1.) The turn of the century Nitro Express cartrisges developed for single shot and double rifles were low pressure rounds. Pressure measurement methodology used then does not translate well into current methodology and readings since back the the measurement was breach pressure as measured in tons per square inch rather than chamber pressure. But, in any event, the pressures of NE catridges is significantly lower.

Almost all rimless or belted rimless cartridges produce higher pressures. The lock up mechanics of the double rifle do not match a bolt action, falling block or other high strength action and so higher pressures may be inappropriate for double rifles, and I argue, especially older rifles built with steel of lesser consistency and stregnth that modern steels. And it isn't a question of safety so mauch as a question of hinge pin longevity, how long the rifle will remain on face, how long the interval between re-jointing.

IMO, well fitted third fasteners - beyond the standard double Purdey under bites, re-inforced action bars, radiused bar/breach angle and modern steel add up to more that sufficient strength for the higher pressure rounds. My own rifle proves my point, with over 800 high pressure 458wm round fired without substantial wear. (High pressure nay sayers frequently cite rifles going off face in a few hunered rounds, or even less, as a common symptom of high pressure rifles, but with a well built rifle and proper care this just isn't so. I believe the alleged citations are simply poor or poorly maintained rifles.)

2.) The simple extractor/ejector mechanism of the rimmed cartridges vs. the more complex and arguably less robust pawl system used in rimless double rifles.

Some argue that with rimless or rimless and belted cartridges that the extractor pawl that engages the groove may slip past the base of the case, trapping the full or empty cartridge in the chamber and the pawl between the base and the rifle's standing breach.

There have been some first hand reports of rimless cartridge rifles doing this, none I have read of rimless belted catridge rifles. I believe any instinces of this occuring are operator error, as explained below.

I believe that since SAAMI and CIP chamber specs permitt the belted cartridges to head space on the belt that the belt would stop the case from moving deep enough into the chamber to allow for the pawl to slip over the base, no matter how well or how poorly the brass was sized.

For a cartridge without a belt, I could see this happening, but the rifle would have to be very poorly fitted or the brass would have to be very poorly sized, with the shoulder too far back and the taper diameter too tight, which would enable the cartridge to slide into the chamber too far. But then, shooting that rifle in any event, with that improperly sized round, would be shooting an out of spec combo with excessive head space to begin with.

So, my advice, look, but also insist on shooting many rounds - maybe a box of 20 - before buying. And if you do buy, make damn sure that your sized cartridges are a perfect and snug fit IN YOUR CHAMBERS, so that the rounds will drop into the gun and close with slight pressure from contact between chamber and cartridge shoulder.

Hope this helps,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
If that's the one at Cabelas in Ft.Worth it was originally a 400/360. I wasn't very impressed with it.

quote:

Originally posted by SINNER:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Rimless cartridges are disfavored by most double rifles afficianodos.

The rifle ought to be selling at a substantial discount.
JPK

It is true that most rimless, and belted rimless double rifle sell for far less than the more traditional NE chamberings in calibers used for dangerous game. those normally sell to collectors who rarely shoot anything other than paper with the rifle if anything at all.


[QUOYE]by sinner
I dont agre that the rifle should be selling at a substantial discount due to its rimless cartridge feature. There's plenty of folks that love the 416 in a double, though rare as the cartridge is in a DR.

In fact the WR 425 I have sold for a premium as well as the Purdey 375 Belted I just moved for insane money.

quote:

by sinner
It really depends more on the maker of the gun in the double rifle collectors eyes rather than the type of calibre, from my own experience. Certain calibre's will bring a premium over others, but that will always hold true no matter what the trend is.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

I know a lot of double rifle owners, and I'm not talking about two or three, but close to a couple hundred, and only maybe 10% of them will use a dangerous game double rifle chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge. For the doubles used for large non-dangerous game it is another story. JPK uses both his light, and heavy double rifle for the game the cartridges were made for, and so far, he's had no problem that I am aware of! That is good for him, and my hopes are that his luck continues.

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by catosilvaje:
To bad that is a nice gun to be left to rot in a display case.
Can't be chambered to any thing else. Just lying there waiting
for adventure that will never come.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Will,

I don't disagree in general with your "don't go out of the way" perspective. But the 375H&H and the 458wm are so ubiquitous that they solve a lot of potential problems encountered with the not so common rimmed cartridges and even the 470.

Mike 70560,

I wouldn't advise heading the rimless or rimless beltless route without shooting the rifle and without a close inspection of that rifle's system of engaging the groove. But one variable removed when a hunter shows up with a 458wm or a 375H&H double is ammo, and good ammo designed for DG, available just about anywhere, even in the bush where it is needed.

I think that variable is hell of a lot more important and arrises a hell of a lot more frequently than any issue with belted rimless or rmless cartridges in double rifles.

And if you wish to further eleiminate variables then rely on Woodleighs, they are the more consistent performer. North Forks are great for some purposes, but the Woodleighs turn in more consistent performance, especially on the first brain shot.

Jack,

What you propose could be done, but why? If you insist on a rim and on the .416" round, there is the 500/416. Of course, if you already own the rifle and it performs unreliably, that might be an option.

JPK

quote:

11lbs just isn't enough for a long, multi DG trip.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
If that's the one at Cabelas in Ft.Worth it was originally a 400/360. I wasn't very impressed with it.

How do you go from a 400/360 to a 416 ?

Was it rebarrelled ?

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:

I was back in Cabelas today. It was originally a 400/360 Westley. Proof marks still say 360 ex. 41grs cordite 314 bullet.

The barrels were rechambered and rebored. I wouldn't touch it.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

11lbs just isn't enough for a long, multi DG trip.

Not when it takes a box of shells to shoot one damn elephant.

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by catosilvaje:
The rifle is a Bently and Playfair . Don't know if I spelled it right. Guess it's English.