I am writing this with regards to the person who is going to hunt dangerous game RECREATIONALLY. I am sure that I recall Buzz C. in his elephant hunting video telling people to sight in their elephant rifle at 25 yards dead on. I also really believe that 25 yards is the maximum recommended range for elephant. (not saying that longer shots, even twice as long, are not taken...) The classic 450/400 either length has M/V of 2150-2175, and the classic 416 Rigby has M/V of 2350-2375. The 450/400 firing solids has a very strong reputation for super penetration into elephant, heads or bodies. So it was not Rigby's goal to "fix" a "weakness' of the .41 caliber in the "penetration department". But maybe Rigby intended for his round to be used at greater distances, especially for the first shot, since shot two would be slower from the magazine rifle than it would be from the double rifle. So here's a few questions:

- WHY did Rigby choose to speed up his round?

- With a given bullet, what is the velocity of 450/400 ammo at 25 yards when M/V is 2150?

- How many yards would the same bullet travel before it fell to the resulting velocity above, if it started at Rigby's 2350 M/V?

- Why is it a good idea to have a D/R rifle cartridge that fires at the magazine rifle cartridge velocity if extra penetration is NOT needed, and very likely can be BAD due to exiting bullets striking other animals. (ref 375 Fl Mag and 500/416)[It can't be to "encourage" greater distance shots at game with D/Rs, CAN IT? Is NOT the point of recreational D/G hunting to get close enough to them that they are actually a threat when firing? After all Dangerous Game IS NOT DANGEROUS at 100 yards!]

- It can't be to add energy to the smaller lighter bullets, CAN IT? (If you want more energy to hit your animal just go up in caliber and use a M/V of 2150-2175 again.)

The negative of adding to the velocity of the ammo of course is greater recoil and increased time between shot one and two in the D/R.

I look forward to learning something from your answers.

From reading this forum what I have learned in a nutshell is this:
If you have a double then a 41-45 caliber bullet going at 2000-2100 feet per second is the perfect medicine for hunting dangerous game. If you put the same bullet weight/diameter, same velocity, in a bolt rifle, than it is totally useless for dangerous game. Read the posts on how many people want to bump the 416 Rigby up to 2500-2600fps. Another example is the 458 Win mag. 500 grains at 2050fps is considered worthless for dangerous game by many on this forum. If you put the same weight bullet, or maybe 20 grs. or so less, in a 450 NE double, it is one of the best dangerous game rounds in existence.
One other point. When hunting any dangerous game with a bolt rifle, it is imperative that you have some sort of optics mounted on the rifle, even if shooting at 10 yards or less distance. There was a great hunting show a couple of weeks back where a guy was frantically trying to turn the magnification ring on his scope so that he could use it at closer range. The PH seemed a bit anxious about this.
If you have a double, MOST, not all, but MOST don't seem to need optics on their rifles.
So to sum it up, if you have a bolt rifle, in a similar caliber to a double, then you must have optics, and push the same bullet faster than if you have a double in a similar caliber.

Part of it was the evolution from black powder and cordite to various smokeless "modern" powders. Bullet/projectile technology also evolved into much better construction that was matched to the intended impact velocities and target resistances that were encountered.

378 Weatherby rifles had a bad reputation initially using 375 H&H bullets.
458 Win Mags suffered similar bullet issues at times.

The traditional double rifles of yesteryear and today are matched better with less extreme velocity differences and bullets constructed wrong for the intended use.

Modern magazine rifles are really built to a different standard then the double rifle. A lot of people are into the more is better mentality - consider the 30-30, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 300 "Ultra" Mags. A long time ago a 30-30 was thought to be "the" rifle, then along came WW I and the 30-06 rose to prominence, now it seems like every new deer hunter has to have the latest 300 "ultra" Mag for Bambi. Technological evolution can improve things for the better (like the 308 Winchester) which gives you a modern "normal" .30 caliber rifle suitable for war or deer season in a more compact handier package or you can go old school and dust off the 30-30.

If you are really looking for long distance shots, a magazine rifle is a lot easier to use. Consider scope issues and crossing bullets. Where is your double designed to cross? Does it cross? Sure you can shoot a single barrel and sight in optics for long range but, that really wasn't a consideration when the old classic DR cartridges came into existence so, recoil was put into larger heavier projectiles not faster ones.

Ultimately, it comes down to picking the right tool for the job. If you are going to shoot Elk at a 1,000 yards, a DR is a bad choice. That 300/338 Magnum rifle that works on the Elk hunt probably won't work for the vast majority of people on Dangerous Game at realistic contact distances.

Going to the opposite extreme of your caliber comparisons, consider the 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R. Why would anyone own one of each? Which would you rather use on feral hogs in heavy cover or out in the open field? If a hog surprises me, I could probably fire both barrels on a double before I get clipped or its gone, with the bolt action only one. Out in the open I have time to pick my shot and distance to protect me from an attack.

The Double Rifle versus Magazine rifle also totally ignores the affordable access to an effective caliber. The 9.3x62 came into existence because a lot of people could NOT AFFORD a DR which was a factor for many cartridge and rifle combinations.

quote:

Originally posted by AlanFaulkner:
From reading this forum what I have learned in a nutshell is this:
If you have a double then a 41-45 caliber bullet going at 2000-2100 feet per second is the perfect medicine for hunting dangerous game. If you put the same bullet weight/diameter, same velocity, in a bolt rifle, than it is totally useless for dangerous game. Read the posts on how many people want to bump the 416 Rigby up to 2500-2600fps. Another example is the 458 Win mag. 500 grains at 2050fps is considered worthless for dangerous game by many on this forum. If you put the same weight bullet, or maybe 20 grs. or so less, in a 450 NE double, it is one of the best dangerous game rounds in existence.
One other point. When hunting any dangerous game with a bolt rifle, it is imperative that you have some sort of optics mounted on the rifle, even if shooting at 10 yards or less distance. There was a great hunting show a couple of weeks back where a guy was frantically trying to turn the magnification ring on his scope so that he could use it at closer range. The PH seemed a bit anxious about this.
If you have a double, MOST, not all, but MOST don't seem to need optics on their rifles.
So to sum it up, if you have a bolt rifle, in a similar caliber to a double, then you must have optics, and push the same bullet faster than if you have a double in a similar caliber.

I would say you have this forum pretty well figured out!

quote:

Originally posted by D'Angelico Fan:


- Why is it a good idea to have a D/R rifle cartridge that fires at the magazine rifle cartridge velocity if extra penetration is NOT needed, and very likely can be BAD due to exiting bullets striking other animals. (ref 375 Fl Mag and 500/416)[It can't be to "encourage" greater distance shots at game with D/Rs, CAN IT? Is NOT the point of recreational D/G hunting to get close enough to them that they are actually a threat when firing? After all Dangerous Game IS NOT DANGEROUS at 100 yards!]

The one part of your post I would take issue with is the part about extra penetration being not necessary or "BAD". IMO, you can never have too much penetration. If you're worried about hitting an animal behind your target animal, patience, not less penetration is what is needed. Wait for a clear shot.

Point being that "X" amount of penetration might be just fine on a side brain shot or even certain frontal brain shots on Ele's. But what if the Bull has his head raised so that you have to shoot 18" or so below the eyes? Then you have a lot of bone and muscle to go through to reach the brain. Certainly, more penetration is necessary in this situation than the side brain shot.

Also, say you've just hit your buffalo with a good shot but instead of falling (which they seldom do), he turns tail and runs leaving you with an arse on follow up shot (which they quite often do). How much penetration do you need now to drive that bullet through the hindquarters and into the vitals via the old Tejas Heart Shot?

Check out the Terminal Bullet Thread (now about 230 pages long) and the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future Thread ( now about 18 pages long) and read about all the work that's been done to increase penetration with the design of the CEB BBW#13 profile Brass Solid and Non-Con Bullets. The development of this bullet has focused on 1) ensuring substantially more penetration than conventional designed bullets , 2) reducing barrel strain and pressures with the same or often better velocities, and 3) outstanding accuracy in a DG loading.

The thought of "Too Much Penetration" is something I can't get my mind around. I think that's like the term "OverKill".

Welcome to AR and welcome to the discussion.

The 458 WM analysis/argument has always caused me to shake my head. If a cartridge can launch a 450-500g 458 slug at 2050-2150 fps, then noone is going to convince me that it makes a difference if the cartridge is the 458 WM or 450 NE. Laughable actually ! But there are those that do it w/ a straight face.
As for the 416 Rigby, the research I have done indicates that Rigby designed the cartridge to not only compete w/ the traditional DR cartridges at the time, but in fact better them AND designed bullets that were stronger/stouter for the 416. This gave Rigby bragging rights in the English gun trade that helped them sell rifles. Ross Seyfried's article (Handloader #204) states that at the time of its invention, the 416 Rigby was the most powerful bolt-action cartridge available. New rifle, more speed, better bullet. AND it worked--both the rifle/cartridge and sales.

So Rigby went to the higher velocity to use that fact as part of his marketing scheme. There was no need to have the increased bullet speed. It was his belief that people would get excited about the velocity number combined with the increase of energy over existing/other .41 or .42 caliber ammo, the ultimate goal being to sell more rifles and ammo. Of course there are instances that Rigby's penetration can be called for as described in a post above. I think the best thing to do now is to order a Bailey Bradshaw double in a custom caliber, the TRUE .40 inch diameter at 395 grain weight and M/V of 2275 FPS!!!

I can say that the 450/400, either a 3" or a 3 1/4" is a great cartridge for a double rifle.

I have killed a couple of cape buff, the wife killed a cape buff, and I have killed lion and bull elephant with one.

I have also shot bears, caribou, deer and pigs and some plains game with one.

I would not hesitate to take a 450/400 to Juriassic Park...

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
The 458 WM analysis/argument has always caused me to shake my head. If a cartridge can launch a 450-500g 458 slug at 2050-2150 fps, then noone is going to convince me that it makes a difference if the cartridge is the 458 WM or 450 NE. Laughable actually ! But there are those that do it w/ a straight face.
As for the 416 Rigby, the research I have done indicates that Rigby designed the cartridge to not only compete w/ the traditional DR cartridges at the time, but in fact better them AND designed bullets that were stronger/stouter for the 416. This gave Rigby bragging rights in the English gun trade that helped them sell rifles. Ross Seyfried's article (Handloader #204) states that at the time of its invention, the 416 Rigby was the most powerful bolt-action cartridge available. New rifle, more speed, better bullet. AND it worked--both the rifle/cartridge and sales.

Some folks live in the dark ages...with the bullets and powder selection today the 458 win. mag. produces velocity with 450 or 500 grain bullets well enough to get the job done and in a standard length action.

The 416 Rigby performance (for practical purposes) can be produced in a shorter trimmer actioned rifle ie 416 rem. or better yet a 404 Jeffery. The Rigby size action is best suited for a 458+ caliber and really not need...........404 Jeffery is much better suited to 40+caliber bolt

If only the 458 G&A would be a factory selection...seems a better balanced, performance to weight taken into account..

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


The 416 Rigby performance (for practical purposes) can be produced in a shorter trimmer actioned rifle ie 416 rem. or better yet a 404 Jeffery. The Rigby size action is best suited for a 458+ caliber and really not need...........404 Jeffery is much better suited to 40+caliber bolt

The caveat to this statement however is that the Rigby was and is loaded very mildly in factory rounds. In the hands of experienced handloaders, the 416 Rem. or the 404 Jeffery can't hold a candle to the Rigby's true capabilities.

A 350gr TSX at 2800fps in a full house 416 Rigby is a force to be reckoned with!

quote:

Originally posted by AlanFaulkner:
From reading this forum what I have learned in a nutshell is this:
If you have a double then a 41-45 caliber bullet going at 2000-2100 feet per second is the perfect medicine for hunting dangerous game. If you put the same bullet weight/diameter, same velocity, in a bolt rifle, than it is totally useless for dangerous game. Read the posts on how many people want to bump the 416 Rigby up to 2500-2600fps. Another example is the 458 Win mag. 500 grains at 2050fps is considered worthless for dangerous game by many on this forum. If you put the same weight bullet, or maybe 20 grs. or so less, in a 450 NE double, it is one of the best dangerous game rounds in existence.
One other point. When hunting any dangerous game with a bolt rifle, it is imperative that you have some sort of optics mounted on the rifle, even if shooting at 10 yards or less distance. There was a great hunting show a couple of weeks back where a guy was frantically trying to turn the magnification ring on his scope so that he could use it at closer range. The PH seemed a bit anxious about this.
If you have a double, MOST, not all, but MOST don't seem to need optics on their rifles.
So to sum it up, if you have a bolt rifle, in a similar caliber to a double, then you must have optics, and push the same bullet faster than if you have a double in a similar caliber.

Alan I understand this post was meant in a, not too thinly veiled, sarcastic hit to insinuate a contradiction of people’s opinions depending on what rifle they are discussing.

The slap aside, there is a legitimate reason for the seemingly contradictory opinions. You can go to any hunting camp, especially a deer camp, and ask any question about a double rifle and if there are ten hunters around the camp fire you will get ten different answers to that question, and maybe one will be correct. You can do the same in an African camp, and the results will likely be almost the same, with the exception of there maybe will be two there who have some insight into the workings of a double rifle, and that includes MOST PHs as well.
Things will be stated one way by the guy who shoots a bolt rifle, and another way by a hunter who shoots a double rifle. I mean by that, the guy who is a staunch bolt man may know the bolt rifle very well, but his opinions of the hows and wheres of a double rifle will usually be 180 degrees off. While the guy who shoots a double rifle most will usually know the double from stem to stern, and in this case he will usually be as knowledgeable about the bolt rifle as well, simply because he most likely hunted with a bolt rifle for many years before he even owned a double rifle, where most bolt hunters have likely never even shot a double rifle in his life, and depends on the gun rags for his knowledge of doubles, written by writers who are misinformed as well.

The reasons I just wrote are verified by Sid Post’s, also a little tongue-in-cheek offering, by listing every misconception ever printed in regard to double rifles, their sighting equipment, their capabilities and their chamberings. He is right, that even most double rifle shooters today do not fully understand the rifle by believing that double rifles are regulated to cross shot at a given range. That misconception leads them to think they can only zero that scope to one distance, and that is just one thing that is not so! There are many others. ………………………………………………………………….........................................................

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
The 458 WM analysis/argument has always caused me to shake my head. If a cartridge can launch a 450-500g 458 slug at 2050-2150 fps, then noone is going to convince me that it makes a difference if the cartridge is the 458 WM or 450 NE. Laughable actually ! But there are those that do it w/ a straight face.

It may be laughable today but I assure you it was no laughing matter in the mid to late 1950s!

The problem the 458 Win Mag had was that it couldn't make the 2050 fps with the powders available in 1954 in a hunting length barrel. Without having a 30 inch barrel like the factory did their tests in a bench mounted test rifle there were some real problems. On top of that with those powders they had to compact the load to get enough powder to even get that speed in the 30 inch barrel. This led to caking of the powder and causing squib loads and outright duds on occasion.

It is quite evident that many here were not around in 1954 when the 458Win Mag came out, and because they didn't experience the mind boggling realization they had just experienced a dud, or hang fire at a most inopportune time!

At that time the 450NE was and still is a very reliable dangerous game cartridge, and considering the time and available powders the 458 Win Mag should have been the 458LOTT and held to 2150 with a 480 gr bullet just like the 450NE 3 1/4 inch.

Gentlemen these are not just old campfire tales, the 458 Win Mag had some real problems in it's infancy.

......................................................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


The 416 Rigby performance (for practical purposes) can be produced in a shorter trimmer actioned rifle ie 416 rem. or better yet a 404 Jeffery. The Rigby size action is best suited for a 458+ caliber and really not need...........404 Jeffery is much better suited to 40+caliber bolt

The caveat to this statement however is that the Rigby was and is loaded very mildly in factory rounds. In the hands of experienced handloaders, the 416 Rem. or the 404 Jeffery can't hold a candle to the Rigby's true capabilities.

A 350gr TSX at 2800fps in a full house 416 Rigby is a force to be reckoned with!

Just my opinion, but I do not see the utility in that loading. It certainly is not any more useful for DG than a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps and there are better PG rifles choices than your loading....

I do see your compromise use and if it works for you thats fine...I guess I could drop the bullet weight of my 404 and from a practical purpose have a 300yd DG/PG rifle but then that works against one of my rationals for hunting, tracking/stalking, you know - getting as close as you can add to the enjoyment...

when my Bailey bradshaw 450/400 is complete i'll give you a report on it

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


The 416 Rigby performance (for practical purposes) can be produced in a shorter trimmer actioned rifle ie 416 rem. or better yet a 404 Jeffery. The Rigby size action is best suited for a 458+ caliber and really not need...........404 Jeffery is much better suited to 40+caliber bolt

The caveat to this statement however is that the Rigby was and is loaded very mildly in factory rounds. In the hands of experienced handloaders, the 416 Rem. or the 404 Jeffery can't hold a candle to the Rigby's true capabilities.

A 350gr TSX at 2800fps in a full house 416 Rigby is a force to be reckoned with!

Just my opinion, but I do not see the utility in that loading. It certainly is not any more useful for DG than a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps and there are better PG rifles choices than your loading....

I do see your compromise use and if it works for you thats fine...I guess I could drop the bullet weight of my 404 and from a practical purpose have a 300yd DG/PG rifle but then that works against one of my rationals for hunting, tracking/stalking, you know - getting as close as you can add to the enjoyment...

Ahh, the old "getting as close as you can to add to the enjoyment" argument. Now we are talking!! That's why I prefer Double Rifles to even my 416 Rigby!

Doubles make it UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL!

But most DR guys like myself, also carry a scoped rifle for PG and that "Once in a lifetime Buff Bull of 45" out there at 125 yards that you just can't get any closer to without loosing him"! In this case, I prefer the 416 Rigby with a 350 gr TSX instead of a 300gr (or 270gr) TSX in a 375 H&H. That is unless I have my wife or one of my kids along that want to shoot something. What is the better PG rifle you speak of? The 375H&H? Remember that some of the PG in Africa are mighty large! Giraffe, Eland, etc. Also, it's nice to have a backup rifle that is suited for PG and DG work in case something happens to the big hammer, so I don't really like to go smaller on the second rifle than a 375H&H. This load in the Rigby will beat the 375 H&H in every category except recoil, and that one is mooted by sufficient practice with big bore guns, again unless it's a wife / kid hunt!

But all fun and games aside, and going back to the OP, why the increase in velocity of the Rigby over the 450/400? Better penetration and longer range! Quite simple. And taking that one step further, the full house Rigby will outperform the 416 Rem and 404 J as well when loaded accordingly. The point being that the Rigby has the option to take it up a notch, the Rem and Jeffery don't. That's why I disagree with the statement that the "404 Jeffery is better suited to 40+caliber bolt". But hey, if we all had the same opinion, it would be a vanilla world!

Cheers.

MacD37
I was not in anyway making this a double vs bolt fight or any thinly veiled sarcastic hit.
It was sarcasm intended to show, what I think, is a bit absurd when some subjects come up.
In this forum there have been countless posts about the inadequacy of the 458 Win. At the same time there is heaps of praise for a 450 double, although they are virtually identical in ballistics, with the 458 shooting a 20 gr. heavier bullet.
Leaving out the argument of reliability, I would wager there are people who would say that the 458, even in a double, is inadequate as compared to the 450. That makes no sense to me, but then again a lot of things don't.
Every weapon has its limitations, but again on this forum there have been numerous posts about bolt rifles that are worthless unless they shoot sub minute of angle. On the other hand a double that shoots 2-3" groups, both barrels, at 50 yds, is a great weapon. So, again, one of those absurd questions seem to pop up...why is a 2-3" group at 50 yds adequate for dangerous game, and the same group inadequate for dangerous game, just because of the type of action that a firearm has?
I really like doubles. They are a magnificent tool, and ideally suited for what they were designed for, but again, this forum is where I see double owners have started the "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to double vs. bolt.
I may be very old fashioned, but I like open sights. None of my bigbores have scopes on them, all open sights, either peep or the "v" sights that are popular on doubles. That is why I posted about the optics.
Unfortunately there seems to be a bit of snobbery involved when it comes to double rifle owners, as somewhat verified in your post. I KNOW every firearm I own from stem to stern, be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun. I don't believe you can be safe or effective with a firearm if you don't. There are some of us, me included, that can't or don't want to spend five figures on a firearm. We have to make due with those in the four figures or less category. Your post states usually only double owners really and truly understand their firearms. That to me is why you have this us vs. them mentality that you seem opposed to.
Let me ask you one last question. In your post you state that "he most likely hunted with a bolt rifle for many years before he even owned a double rifle." So, where does Harry Selby fit into your theory? He hunted for many years with a double before he had to go to a bolt, but he opted to keep using the bolt for rest of his career, shooting his 416 enough that he had to have it rebarreled. While that was going on he switched to a, GASP!, push feed 458 Winchester which he seemed to be very happy with and trusted his life and his client's lives to, as some have posted, totally inadequate rifle cartridge combination.
Warning! the following is PURE SARCASM, NOT TO BE TAKEN AS HONEST OPINION, I REPEAT, PURE SARCASM, NOT TO BE TAKEN AS OPINION:
I guess Harry was one of those shooters that didn't know that he was using an inadequate actioned type rifle chambered for an inadequate cartridge, and that it was by pure luck that he was able to be a successful PH for the rest of his career after he switched action types and calibers while all the while possibly not knowing his rifles from stem to stern since they were bolt actions.
AGAIN, THE ABOVE WAS SARCASM, DID NOT ATTEMPT TO THINLY VEIL, OR IN ANY OTHER WAY, INTEND TO POST THIS AS OPINION. IT WAS A JOKE, AN ATTEMPT AT HUMOR, NO MALICE INTENDED, NO SLANDER, NO CRITICISM.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


The 416 Rigby performance (for practical purposes) can be produced in a shorter trimmer actioned rifle ie 416 rem. or better yet a 404 Jeffery. The Rigby size action is best suited for a 458+ caliber and really not need...........404 Jeffery is much better suited to 40+caliber bolt

The caveat to this statement however is that the Rigby was and is loaded very mildly in factory rounds. In the hands of experienced handloaders, the 416 Rem. or the 404 Jeffery can't hold a candle to the Rigby's true capabilities.

A 350gr TSX at 2800fps in a full house 416 Rigby is a force to be reckoned with!

Just my opinion, but I do not see the utility in that loading. It certainly is not any more useful for DG than a 400 grain bullet at 2400-2500 fps and there are better PG rifles choices than your loading....

I do see your compromise use and if it works for you thats fine...I guess I could drop the bullet weight of my 404 and from a practical purpose have a 300yd DG/PG rifle but then that works against one of my rationals for hunting, tracking/stalking, you know - getting as close as you can add to the enjoyment...

Ahh, the old "getting as close as you can to add to the enjoyment" argument. Now we are talking!! That's why I prefer Double Rifles to even my 416 Rigby!

Doubles make it UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL!

But most DR guys like myself, also carry a scoped rifle for PG and that "Once in a lifetime Buff Bull of 45" out there at 125 yards that you just can't get any closer to without loosing him"! In this case, I prefer the 416 Rigby with a 350 gr TSX instead of a 300gr (or 270gr) TSX in a 375 H&H. That is unless I have my wife or one of my kids along that want to shoot something. What is the better PG rifle you speak of? The 375H&H? Remember that some of the PG in Africa are mighty large! Giraffe, Eland, etc. Also, it's nice to have a backup rifle that is suited for PG and DG work in case something happens to the big hammer, so I don't really like to go smaller on the second rifle than a 375H&H. This load in the Rigby will beat the 375 H&H in every category except recoil, and that one is mooted by sufficient practice with big bore guns, again unless it's a wife / kid hunt!

But all fun and games aside, and going back to the OP, why the increase in velocity of the Rigby over the 450/400? Better penetration and longer range! Quite simple. And taking that one step further, the full house Rigby will outperform the 416 Rem and 404 J as well when loaded accordingly. The point being that the Rigby has the option to take it up a notch, the Rem and Jeffery don't. That's why I disagree with the statement that the "404 Jeffery is better suited to 40+caliber bolt". But hey, if we all had the same opinion, it would be a vanilla world!

Cheers.

Todd, I am sure we would agree on more than we disagree. I had 2 double rifles and used them hunting DG...I gave them up a few years back due to limitations, both my own (difficult for me to use open sights in the Bush and I refuse to scope a DR) and having to give up some shot opportunities.

You and I will just have to disagree on the 404 v 416 Rigby. I think you may be surprised how closely a 404 Jeffery can be loaded to top end 416 Rigby loads. I just do not see the need to push velocity beyond 2400 - 2500 fps for DG, at that velocity, the 125 yd shot you mentioned is easy enough, actually 200 yds would not be a problem.

My point is you do not need the Rigby sized case.....I have loaded for both 416 Rigby (Used one of a couple of years before I sold it) and 404 Jeffery, much perfer the Jeffery ........but as you say, its all about what one wants to use...

D'Angelico Fan:

I believe that your original premise is faulty. I agree with Todd. With todays bullets, extra velocity means greater penetration and you can never have too much penetration.

The Kynoch 450/400 ammo of the day delivered 2125 fps but that was from a 30 inch barrel. From the shorter barrels of most double rifles, that same ammo probably only delivered barely 2000 fps. Rigby's .416 was a marked improvement on the performance of the 450/400 as was the more recent 500/.416.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


Todd, I am sure we would agree on more than we disagree. I had 2 double rifles and used them hunting DG...I gave them up a few years back due to limitations, both my own (difficult for me to use open sights in the Bush and I refuse to scope a DR) and having to give up some shot opportunities.

JJS, yeah, I think we would agree on more than we disagree. And we can agree to disagree on the Rigby vs Jeffery. But I do have to pick at you one more time in good fun before we call a complete truce!

If you say "that works against one of my (your) rationals for hunting, tracking/stalking, you know - getting as close as you can to add to the enjoyment...." then say you gave up Double Rifles because you had to give up some shot opportunities, don't those statements contradict each other? I mean, using the double with open sights requires one to get up close and personal, which is, as you say, the thing that makes it more enjoyable!

quote:

The 458 WM analysis/argument has always caused me to shake my head. If a cartridge can launch a 450-500g 458 slug at 2050-2150 fps, then noone is going to convince me that it makes a difference if the cartridge is the 458 WM or 450 NE. Laughable actually ! But there are those that do it w/ a straight face.

I've thought about just calling the 450 Gr @ 2150 from the 458WM the 450 Rimless Nitro Express. It's got all the charm of an old English round and the Nitro Express designation ups its effectiveness by at least 15% over a comparable 458 WM. It's a winner!

If you compare the two, the 400 Jeffery and the 416 Rigby rounds, you are in Apple/Oranges territory.
While the 400 Jeffery round was a Nitro Express round from the beginning. It was moderate pressure round designed for weaker action double rifles.

The 416 is a high pressure round designed for a magazine fed bolt action. While 416 has a good reputation for penetration with it's long 400 grain bullet, you pay for extra velocity with higher recoil.

Rusty:

The 400 Jeffery is a wonderful round, especially in it's original guise. However, I don't think you can call the .416 Rigby "a high pressure round". Rigby designed the big case to keep pressures low and as it was originally loaded, it barely produced more pressure than a 30-30. It is a superb cartridge.

Absolutely correct Dave, the Ribgy is a low to medium pressure round in it's original loading. It only becomes a high pressure round when hot rodded up by handloaders. That huge case was designed to keep pressures low in the "tropical heat" which is the exact same as "non-tropical heat", least we open that discussion again!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


Todd, I am sure we would agree on more than we disagree. I had 2 double rifles and used them hunting DG...I gave them up a few years back due to limitations, both my own (difficult for me to use open sights in the Bush and I refuse to scope a DR) and having to give up some shot opportunities.

JJS, yeah, I think we would agree on more than we disagree. And we can agree to disagree on the Rigby vs Jeffery. But I do have to pick at you one more time in good fun before we call a complete truce!

If you say "that works against one of my (your) rationals for hunting, tracking/stalking, you know - getting as close as you can to add to the enjoyment...." then say you gave up Double Rifles because you had to give up some shot opportunities, don't those statements contradict each other? I mean, using the double with open sights requires one to get up close and personal, which is, as you say, the thing that makes it more enjoyable!

Todd,

A good argument is always entertaining...

No contridiction, as I stated in the prior post my eyesight does not work well with iron sights and just had to switch to scoped rifle to ensure more precise shot placement while in the thick stuff...if my shots were out in the open it would not be as much of a problem. Buffalo moving in the thick stuff can be a problem with picking a "spot" even a close range.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


A good argument is always entertaining...

JJS, it's also nice when we can make that argument without being disrespectful! Unfortunately, that is rare on this site.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:


A good argument is always entertaining...

JJS, it's also nice when we can make that argument without being disrespectful! Unfortunately, that is rare on this site.

Todd & Jjs,

I always thought that an arguement was an "exchange of ideas" in a civilized manner. Gentlemen, thank you for confirming that!

Todd and jjs,

I would enjoy arguing with either or both of you gentlemen!

465H&H