The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles "On face"/"Off face" life expectancy????Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
OK, Gentlemen...here's another question for you to chew up. I know what it "on face" means so tell me HOW MANY ROUNDS and how many openings and closings, average, does it take to wear out a double to the point of needing repairing????? Some of the dire predictions about a double going "off face" I've read seem to indicate the double is a fragile thing that will self destruct in no time flat and if your not very careful you can buy a pig in a poke if you buy a used double. Along with the question of which is faster to reload when you got a sticky wicket up in your face...this "on face/off face" question now rears it's ugly mug. Any one care to enlighten me? I know most of the problems facing ANY gun and ugly situations. Just when I was starting to think again about buying a double, this "face" thing jumped up and tried to poke me. Is this a "REAL" problem or just another overblown, there but not all that worrisome, pile of BS? Spending a large chunk of my beer money, THEN having to repair it with another big chunk in a few hundred rounds isn't kosher to my way of thinking. As always, thanks for any information pro or con. | ||
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With good maintance and shooting regulated shells w/o trying to hot rod it... Many many hunderds if not thousands. I have several over 100 years old and I doubt that they've been re-jointed. And that's about $600 or so using JJ. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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My take is with current production rifles taking proper care (keeping the wear points lubed) not shooting to hot of hand loads I don't think you can wear one out. Some of the vintage rifles didn't have the quality of steel we have today. Still with proper care one of the vintage rifles will out live you. If there is a problem it can be fixed. They do torture testing of different pistols I think it would be interesting to do one on a double. This might be a test of the shooter more than the rifle. Say 5000 rounds through a .500. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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With a Jones Underlever the expected "life" for on/off face might be a lifetime + another lifetime..if used under normal conditionen. There is a reason why this lockingsystem is my preferred above anything else.  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Thanks for the insights...I thought as much...100 year old rifles, yes - possibly/probable, but with todays steels the concept of fragility just didn't quite compute. Still trying to get a firm grip on this new-to-me double rifle purchase possibility. | |||
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Yes, with any modern made DR, they will outlast you by several lifetimes. Not something to worry about. Modern rifles are made from alloy steel; usually chrome moly with maybe some nickel thrown in. Old rifles were made from wrought iron to low carbon steel. That is why they were case hardened but the cores are very soft. Modern steels are tough all the way through and can resist a lot of abuse. | |||
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Vic Venters has a good chapter in one of his books explaining jointing, and fitting "on the circle". In this chapter the overall consenses is that a gun is no better(longevity) than the person that joins the barrels to the action. This is pretty easy to understand, if you have a bad fit that allows movement upon firing, that movement will magnify itself quickly upon firing as it allows momentum to build. This hammering effect can cause a gun to shoot loose quickly and explains why one should never shoot a loose gun. One is the safety factor, another is the self destructing nature this allows to the mechanism. In the age of lesser quality steels design was more paramount to a long lasting gun. Most British guns were fitted on the circle. What this means is that the arc on the front face of the rear barrel lump has a corresponding arc in the action body it mates with when the action is closed. Most jointers fit these surfaces on shotguns so that it just kisses the other surface upon closing. This enables the gun to open and close easily, but in the event of the gun firing it alleviates action flex and the hinge pin alone bearing all forward movement of the barrels. On doubles rifles some fit this arc so that upon closing it draws the barrels off of the hinge so that the hinge pin bears no forces against it, rather its just a hinge for the barrels to rotate on for opening and closing. The dolls head on a WR acts as another bearing surface that is fit on the circle and acts to keep the barrels on face during firing and is there to alleviate/lessen flex. On modern guns with modern steel I cant prove that this method is still viable, but in my belief it certainly cant hurt. Will you shoot a double loose in a few hundred rounds? ...not if its fitted properly. http://www.facebook.com/profil...p?id=100001646464847 A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC 682-554-0044 Michael08TDK@yahoo.com | |||
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You said it Brother!! | |||
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OR the Dumas-inspired Verny-Carron triple lock/hinge. There is no stronger action out there. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Very well written, and sound thinking! One thing that one should look for if looking to buy a vintage double rifle that seems to be VERY tight on face! The rifle could have been recently re-fitted, or even not fired a lot no matter the age! The thing to do is remove the barrels from the action, and inspect the surfaces of both the hinge pin, and the mating surface of the hook. What you are looking for is evidence of PEENING! Some unscrupulous dealers do this to sell the rifle to a novice. This is most often done on the hook rather than the hinge pin, and though the rifle will seem tight now it will not last long. The peening is done with a sharp punch on the inside surface of the hook so that the tops of the craters made by the punch ride higher so gives the illusion that the rifle is tight. If off face slightly a proper re-jointing is not all that expensive, but if the rifle has been peened, what else will the buyer find later? .....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Personally I have never known of a person, that bought a double rifle that was, proper on the face, that ever shot it off the face, using correct loads. I have seen some double rifles, and some drillings, that were off the face, but who knows what loads were shot in them... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony is right! As long a proper loads are used, and proper lubrication is used a well made double rifle can take thousands of rounds through the barrels and stay tight and on face. Hop the loads up and fail to do proper cleaning and lubing of the mating surfaces and you will ruin a fine rifle regardless of who made it or how much it cost! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles "On face"/"Off face" life expectancy????
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