Any suggestions for good bore cleaners for doubles?

I just use brushes with or without a patch, oil, Hoppe's 9.

I would like to buy an electric cleaner to completely remove lead (bpe and bore rifles) and copper (nitro rifles) completely. It takes too much elbow grease to get the metal out with a rod and brush. Even though the makers of different solvents will say things such as ammonia will dissolve copper--it may but it takes too long. Put a penny in a jar of ammonia and it takes forever.

I think electric is the way to go.
cal

Bore Tech Eliminator is a very strong copper solvent that is water based. I started using it a few years ago after reading an article in Precision Shooting where many bore cleaners were tested. Slip 2000 Carbon Cutter is a top notch powder residue remover.

Nowadays I usually let the bores soak overnight with Wipeout, then finish up with Bore Tech Eliminator.

If all else fails, a sure method is 80 strokes with Remington Bore Cleaner or JB Bore paste.

I have used the electric cleaners in the past. I think they work very well. It does clean right down to the bare metal. I don't use it often, but when you want to get the barrel really clean, it does the job. The one I have is Outers, not sure if that one is still made.

BoreTech is mediocre at best and electrical methods can be catastrophic. Cal you should try WIPEOUT foam cleaner. It works!

Either Wipe out/ Patch out with the accellerator or their foaming bore cleaner. Cleans even the most stubborn barrels spotless.

Bore Tech Eliminator gets out copper that Wipeout leaves, even after 2-3 applications of Wipeout over 24 hours. Eliminator is stronger copper solvent, one of the strongest available.

My experience is the exact opposite.

Don't get that foaming bore cleaner on the stock. Strips finish like you wouldn't believe.

Saw it on a nice H&H Royal....

Wipe Out / Patch Out and accelerator. Nothing better.

Jorge,

That is really interesting. I have been using Bore Tech Eliminator for several years now on all my centerfire rifles, and it has cut copper so much better that anything else (CR-10, 7.62, a Wipeout, etc.) that I have just taken it for granted that it would work that way for everyone.

Wipeout likes to brag about using it after other cleaners. After I finish with Eliminator, Wipeout brings no more copper. Conversely, I have sometimes found heavy copper after 24 hours and several refreshing a of wipeout when chasing it with Eliminator.

I wonder what you and I are doing differently?

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Jorge,

That is really interesting. I have been using Bore Tech Eliminator for several years now on all my centerfire rifles, and it has cut copper so much better that anything else (CR-10, 7.62, a Wipeout, etc.) that I have just taken it for granted that it would work that way for everyone.

Wipeout likes to brag about using it after other cleaners. After I finish with Eliminator, Wipeout brings no more copper. Conversely, I have sometimes found heavy copper after 24 hours and several refreshing a of wipeout when chasing it with Eliminator.

I wonder what you and I are doing differently?

Interesting question. I've heard guys say they've never had trouble with Fords. I've had five of them. All lemons. I can only surmise those who've never had mechanical issues with Fords must not drive them much. Me, I drive a lot. Got 330,000 on my Dodge truck. Runs like new. Less than $3K total repairs in 11 years. Never get that with a Ford. Different experiences. Go figure.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Jorge,

That is really interesting. I have been using Bore Tech Eliminator for several years now on all my centerfire rifles, and it has cut copper so much better that anything else (CR-10, 7.62, a Wipeout, etc.) that I have just taken it for granted that it would work that way for everyone.

Wipeout likes to brag about using it after other cleaners. After I finish with Eliminator, Wipeout brings no more copper. Conversely, I have sometimes found heavy copper after 24 hours and several refreshing a of wipeout when chasing it with Eliminator.

I wonder what you and I are doing differently?

I think it's a "chicken or egg' issue. I have tried ALL copper cleaners and they all work to one degree or another. Sweets and Montana extreme work well, but require elbow grease. I tried Eliminator and it did not remove all the copper by a long shot, so I followed with Wipeout and it worked, although some rifles require more applications. I think you and I are just reversing the process.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
My experience is the exact opposite.

+1

Never clean a bore down to bare metal; you will just have to re-fill the pores with copper. And you are wearing out your barrels unnecessarily. I use copper remover only if I get visible hard coppering, and I don't mean just a light copper wash.
Follow up with CLP, the only Army approved cleaner, lube, and preservative.

Don't hesitate to clean to the metal.Unless you are shooting a super new target barrel in 308 or such,it will only take a round(fouler) and not even to condition the bore for top accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Jorge,

That is really interesting. I have been using Bore Tech Eliminator for several years now on all my centerfire rifles, and it has cut copper so much better that anything else (CR-10, 7.62, a Wipeout, etc.) that I have just taken it for granted that it would work that way for everyone.

Wipeout likes to brag about using it after other cleaners. After I finish with Eliminator, Wipeout brings no more copper. Conversely, I have sometimes found heavy copper after 24 hours and several refreshing a of wipeout when chasing it with Eliminator.

I wonder what you and I are doing differently?

I think it's a "chicken or egg' issue. I have tried ALL copper cleaners and they all work to one degree or another. Sweets and Montana extreme work well, but require elbow grease. I tried Eliminator and it did not remove all the copper by a long shot, so I followed with Wipeout and it worked, although some rifles require more applications. I think you and I are just reversing the process.

The real answer may be that we need two applications of copper solvent, and if we use two different products, the order that we use them doesn't really matter.

I found the magic ingredient to be elbow grease, applied carefully.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Never clean a bore down to bare metal; you will just have to re-fill the pores with copper. And you are wearing out your barrels unnecessarily. I use copper remover only if I get visible hard coppering, and I don't mean just a light copper wash.
Follow up with CLP, the only Army approved cleaner, lube, and preservative.

With high quality aftermarket barrels, I have found it doesn't really matter if you clean to bare metal--or clean until I see no more signs of copper. I doubt we every really clean out ALL the copper. I assume that is because they are very smooth and don't collect a lot of copper. With this kind of barrel I usually find the first shot from a clean, cold, barrel prints the same as subsequent shots.

With a factory barrel and their typically unsmooth interior finish, I more often see a different POI with the first shot from a clean, cold barrel than with subsequent shots. Regardless of the barrel, I always fire one or two fouler shots before starting load work or hunting as that makes everything much more consistent. And since I don't seriously shoot until the barrel is fouled, there is no point in trying to get out all the copper. After 24 hours of Wipeout, I push through patches soaked in Eliminator until the outside of the patches go from a heavy blue color to a light blue color. Eliminator is so strong that it will immediately color a patch placed over a brass jag, so there is always some blue. I prefer nickel plated jags for that reason.

Exactly; if you are shooting a "fouling" shot or two before going for something serious, then why clean all the copper out in the first place?It is just a waste of time and energy, and cleaning supplies. I suppose it does no harm and makes those with nothing else to do feel good, but I haven't enough time as it is to do everything I need to do. So, wasting time in the futile effort of cleaning to bare metal? No.

All rifles will be the most accurate when their bores are clean.The cleaner the more accurate.It is as simple as that.IMO before wipe-out very few knew how to get their bores clean.This crowd would preach that there was no reason to remove copper.If you done a lot of active shooting you will know what copper fouling does to accuracy.Also,unless you don't know fouling shots are not always neccesary and are sometimes just needed to remove oil.

Wipeout - foam. Easy, especially on double rifles, and good enough.

in the past-
Absoltutely clean bores were SOP-
Today many snipers and long range shooters only clean the bore "thoroughly" when accuracy degrades.
At times that may be hundreds of rounds.
Then -"fouling" rounds are fired prior to engaging "targets" or competing.

In other words-perfectly clean bores are in fact--not the most accurate, as viewed by most "experts" and "operators".

Double rifles are not sub-moa precision rifles, (although my Heym's are extremely accurate.)

The reason to thoroughly clean a double rifle is not necessarily accuracy--it is preservation.

Copper (gilding metal) covers over carbon and impurities between that layer and the bore's base metal-
Which , eventually leads to corrosion via hydroscopic issues, electrolytic issues and other mechanisms.

Unlike a precision rifle which in all scenarios is pre-planned for re-barrelling or obsolescence.

Double rifles should / could be considered multi-generational equipment.
Keeping the bores of a double rifle spotless is a noble endeavor.

As to the method- though Wipe-Out with Accelerator is acceptable, I prefer KG-12.

both are very safe for bores, unlike some of the "old" standards that utilize ammonia based compounds-

my results with KG-12 exceed my results with Wipe Out

KG-12? Not familiar with it. I'd love to give it a try.

Here you go:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...industries-solvents/

http://www.shootersforum.com/g...tech-vs-kg-12-a.html

http://www.coretacsolutions.co...cts_KG_KG12_TEST.htm

As to precision accuracy, I cleaned my 1k BR rifle with Eliminator until most the blue was gone. We got to fire a few sighters before each relay, and the total round count for the match would be around 35. The first group was always my best, the second the worst, and the third was in the middle. The first time I broke the club agg record I shot (5-shot groups) 3.5", around 6", and then 4.75ish. That is where my eyes were opened to how clean a bore had to be.

Every barrel is different-
We used to scrub between "heats" and the fire foulers-I have not competed in years now.

KG 12 and then bore scoping has been an "eye-opener".
My routine is to de-carbon, then scrub with a nylon /tynex brush, mop with KG 12 and leave over night- then "clean" in the AM.
The AM results are remarkable.

My Heym likes 3 or 4 down each barrel before the smallest composite groups are achieved.

+2 on the KG12 no ammonia and nothing harmfull.

Good stuff!


.

This subject has been discussed in many threads before.

IMHO after shooting and cleaning rifles for 20+ years, I discovered over the last 5 years that barrel fouling is actually deposited in layers of carbon & copper / jacket gilding.

I found that Wipe Out with Accelerator worked fine and after 24 hours I coudl get more green out of the barrel than the previous night. I also found that a new application of Accelerator came out brown.

Do I tries some of the carburetor cleaner stuff from the auto shop & bingo - brown stuff come off & then more copper is exposed. Alternating the two gave me the cleanest barrels.

It is possible that the Bore Tech stuff is also removing the carbon fouling ...

I am very happy with my current regime of carburetor cleaner & Wipe out / Accelerator Patch Out.

I ordered 5 cans of wipe-out recently and it cost me 160.00 CDN.

Have I missed something or has no one mentioned the reputation a certain ammonia solvent has for eating the solder between barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Have I missed something or has no one mentioned the reputation a certain ammonia solvent has for eating the solder between barrels?

Which one is this?

I clean them with a bore snake and any good quality bore cleaner like Hoppes...About twice a year I give them a good cleaning with Wipe Out..

big bores by their very nature contain more copper deposits than small bores, so need a good cleaning from time to time depending on the amount of shooting one does..

More barrels are ruined by cleaning rods than by shooting, so I use them sparingly and with every precaution..

I believe the boresnake properly cared for is the best thing since sliced white bread.

QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
I ordered 5 cans of wipe-out recently and it cost me 160.00 CDN.[/QUOTE]

George,

Where did you order it? I can't remember where to get it in Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
I ordered 5 cans of wipe-out recently and it cost me 160.00 CDN.

George,

Where did you order it? I can't remember where to get it in Canada.[/QUOTE]
Alberta Tactical Rifle Supply

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:
QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
I ordered 5 cans of wipe-out recently and it cost me 160.00 CDN.

George,

Where did you order it? I can't remember where to get it in Canada.

Alberta Tactical Rifle Supply[/QUOTE]

Thank you!

Wipe-out for me too.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Have I missed something or has no one mentioned the reputation a certain ammonia solvent has for eating the solder between barrels?

And which one is this?

Wipe Out!