Just bought a .450 BPE Alex Henry with great wood and engraving. Interested in seeing how she shoots. I have been without a DR for a while. I think I’ll like this one.

Great woods hunting rifle. Whitetails with a patched leas BP bullet....awesome! :-)

Just got off the phone with you. Let's see some pics!! Talk aobut leading a horse to water but not letting him drink!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just got off the phone with you. Let's see some pics!! Talk aobut leading a horse to water but not letting him drink!
Cal

Pictures are coming. Targets as well. Thanks for your input Cal. You’re the best person when it comes to these old rifles. I have a ton of experience with newer double rifles, but you’re the expert on these old doubles. I just hope it shoots. If not, I’m selling it to you.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just got off the phone with you. Let's see some pics!! Talk aobut leading a horse to water but not letting him drink!
Cal

To see pictures of this rifle, go on Gunsinternational and search for GI# 101076436. I paid $3500 for it a couple days ago. Haven’t shot it yet. Cal, interested to see what you think. The barrels need to be refinished, but they lock tight, ring true, and the rifling is perfect. Slight amount of throat erosion, but nothing to worry about. Great wood and classy engraving. Non-rebounding hammers, but that doesn’t bother me.

If it is tight and the bores are as good as you say, no doubt it will shoot.
Good buy even with its little issues.
You will have a ball with this one with black powder or NfB loads.

If it is the one in that advert that showed “reduced” to $6500 and you got it for $3500 I think you did well. Especially for a “shooter”.
Looks like it just needs that hideous shiny stock finish removed and you are good to go.
For the price I think you can overlook the exterior barrel pitting at the muzzle.

BTW:
For damascus barrel browning/restoration consider Steve Betrtram
http://www.bertramandco.com
(He can restore your stock & forend finish as well.....)

Steve has brought my Alexander Henry DR damascus brown back to life and suitable to a period 1877 rifle.
- Mike

EDIT:
Just looked it up in the Donald Dallas book;
Completed on 28Sep1872, interestingly enough the book shows the records as “.500/.450” so you may have a .500/.450 No.1 Express 2-3/4”

If it really still is a .500/.450 #1 it is a little more effort to source brass and dies (Buffalo Arms has Bertram Brass) but is a very nice cartridge equivalent to the .450 3-1/4” BPE.
The very early rifles chambers in that calibre were cut for the coiled brass cases which were much thicker than our drawn brass as we know them. You will get a lot of neck expansion so annealing brass is essential.

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
If it is the one in that advert that showed “reduced” to $6500 and you got it for $3500 I think you did well. Especially for a “shooter”.
Looks like it just needs that hideous shiny stock finish removed and you are good to go.
For the price I think you can overlook the exterior barrel pitting at the muzzle.

BTW:
For damascus barrel browning/restoration consider Steve Betrtram
http://www.bertramandco.com
(He can restore your stock & forend finish as well.....)

Steve has brought my Alexander Henry DR damascus brown back to life and suitable to a period 1880 rifle.
- Mike

Thanks for the recommendation. I’m going to shoot her first and see just how sexy she is for $3500. I think I stole it.

See my above edited post re: .500/.450 #1 2-3/4”
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
If it is the one in that advert that showed “reduced” to $6500 and you got it for $3500 I think you did well. Especially for a “shooter”.
Looks like it just needs that hideous shiny stock finish removed and you are good to go.
For the price I think you can overlook the exterior barrel pitting at the muzzle.

BTW:
For damascus barrel browning/restoration consider Steve Betrtram
http://www.bertramandco.com
(He can restore your stock & forend finish as well.....)

Steve has brought my Alexander Henry DR damascus brown back to life and suitable to a period 1877 rifle.
- Mike

EDIT:
Just looked it up in the Donald Dallas book;
Completed on 28Sep1872, interestingly enough the book shows the records as “.500/.450” so you may have a .500/.450 No.1 Express 2-3/4”

If it really still is a .500/.450 #1 it is a little more effort to source brass and dies (Buffalo Arms has Bertram Brass) but is a very nice cartridge equivalent to the .450 3-1/4” BPE.
The very early rifles chambers in that calibre were cut for the coiled brass cases which were much thicker than our drawn brass as we know them. You will get a lot of neck expansion so annealing brass is essential.

Red stone, can you give me a call tomorrow. I think you’re right on the caliber as the the .450 BPE fits in the chamber but may be a little sloppy. I probably need to get it checked before firing. Michael Stewart 423-208-7065

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:]

Redstone, can you give me a call tomorrow. I think you’re right on the caliber as the the .450 BPE fits in the chamber but may be a little sloppy. I probably need to get it checked before firing. Michael Stewart 423-208-7065

Sure, what time tomorrow is good, I’m on Rocky Mountain Time.
Oh, if it is the .500/.450 #1 Express the .450 3-1/4” will be a lot sloppy at the case head/rim.
Are you set up to do a chamber cast? A vernier caliper? ......tho really you probably will not need to do a chamber cast right away if at all.

- Mike

Nice rifle.
Do as Redstone says and get rid of the shiny finish on the stock. A nice hand oil finish is proper. You did well.
Cal

I wonder if it will shoot powder coated bullets well.

Nice rifle with great wood.

Just remove the shiny (looks like Truoil) finish and apply 50% diluted Danish oil sanded in with 600 grit paper.

This thread us useless without PICTURES!

Red stone, call me any time today. Thx

Agree.
The base diameters of the two are vastly different and I doubt that a 3-1/4” would even come close to completely entering a No1 or No2 chamber because the case mouth would literally need to be down the bore.
Looking forward to your report.

Ordered dies and Brass today. After shipping for 3 boxes of Bertram brass and the Die Set, I’m out just less than $800.

I hope this gun will be worth it. Now for Bullets. Looking for some .458’s in .325gr if anyone has a deal on some. Thx.

Did you get a chamber cast or some way to decide what the cartridge really is?
That and your barrel groove diameter just ahead of the case......Henry barrels were a tapered bore.
Good luck & have fun.
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:
Did you get a chamber cast or some way to decide what the cartridge really is?
That and your barrel groove diameter just ahead of the case......Henry barrels were a tapered bore.
Good luck & have fun.
- Mike

I did get a chamber cast and it’s definitely 500/450 BPE. The brass from Bertram’s is listed as magnum but it’s still 3.24”. At the muzzle it measures .461, so the .458’s should be perfect, don’t you think?

[/QUOTE]
I did get a chamber cast and it’s definitely 500/450 BPE. The brass from Bertram’s is listed as magnum but it’s still 3.24”. At the muzzle it measures .461, so the .458’s should be perfect, don’t you think?
[/QUOTE]

So you have the .450 #1 Express 2-3/4”, Bertram DOES make a proper .500/450 #1 2-3/4” Express case.

In addition to the case length difference the two .500/450’s are not exactly the same. The .500/.450 Magnum 3-1/4” BPE is a “thin rim” case .040” thickness while the #1 Express is a .060” thick rim.
That said you can actually headspace the thin rim .500 Nitro basic head size brass on the shoulder once they are properly fireformed.
Less expensive alternative to Bertram brass (and case forming/trimming either way) would be .470 Nitro cases.
.461 at the muzzle means even bigger at the breech end remember Henry barrels were taper bore. Plus, Henry barrels were odd number groove rifling so measurements arent exact.
.458” bullets ought to work, maybe not really accurate, I would limit use to only cast lead or paper patch bullets in that old barrel to mitigate possible excess wear.
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Redstone:

I did get a chamber cast and it’s definitely 500/450 BPE. The brass from Bertram’s is listed as magnum but it’s still 3.24”. At the muzzle it measures .461, so the .458’s should be perfect, don’t you think?
[/QUOTE]

So you have the .450 #1 Express 2-3/4”, Bertram DOES make a proper .500/450 #1 2-3/4” Express case.

In addition to the case length difference the two .500/450’s are not exactly the same. The .500/.450 Magnum 3-1/4” BPE is a “thin rim” case .040” thickness while the #1 Express is a .060” thick rim.
That said you can actually headspace the thin rim .500 Nitro basic head size brass on the shoulder once they are properly fireformed.
Less expensive alternative to Bertram brass (and case forming/trimming either way) would be .470 Nitro cases.
.461 at the muzzle means even bigger at the breech end remember Henry barrels were taper bore. Plus, Henry barrels were odd number groove rifling so measurements arent exact.
.458” bullets ought to work, maybe not really accurate, I would limit use to only cast lead or paper patch bullets in that old barrel to mitigate possible excess wear.
- Mike[/QUOTE]

I need the 500/450 3.25” , it is not the #1 Express. The brass I ordered from Bertram in the 500/450 3.25” and have it listed as Magnum. Thanks for your input.

Interesting, so somewhere in its life it has had the chambers lengthened (rechambered) to .500/.450 3-1/4” from the original .450 #1 Express 2-3/4”

The rim seat for the thicker rim tells the tale........it cannot have been originally a .500/.450 Magnum 3-1/4”

That would explain how the .450 straight dropped right in.

Your rifle was put in the ledger on September 28, 1872
Interestingly, it is listed specifically as a 500/450 while other 450s in that serial number range are listed simply as 450s. The 450 straight 3-1/4” was the primary 450 chambering for A. Henry.
That is very unusual because the 500/450 three and a quarter bpe was an H&H development that came about much later than 1872.
What year, I haven’t been able to pin down, but many sources say that H&H used the Westley designed 500/450 before developing their own.
As Mike suggests, get a good measurement of your rim recess and that will give you a good idea if it originally used one or the other.

I think I have some grease groove or patched .458” bullets around that weight I can send to you.
Will take a look.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Your rifle was put in the ledger on September 28, 1872
Interestingly, it is listed specifically as a 500/450 while other 450s in that serial number range are listed simply as 450s. The 450 straight 3-1/4” was the primary 450 chambering for A. Henry.
That is very unusual because the 500/450 three and a quarter bpe was an H&H development that came about much later than 1872.
What year, I haven’t been able to pin down, but many sources say that H&H used the Westley designed 500/450 before developing their own.
As Mike suggests, get a good measurement of your rim recess and that will give you a good idea if it originally used one or the other.

I think I have some grease groove or patched .458” bullets around that weight I can send to you.
Will take a look.

Thanks Huvius. We did a chamber cast a few days ago, and unless it is some mysterious chambering, it can be nothing other than the 500/450 3.25”. The .450 BPE 3.25” rounds that I have fit in perfectly except being loose at the rim. The casting shows it definitely starts as a 500 then bottlenecks to a 450 with muzzle micro-ing at .461. I have re-checked the chamber length no less than 4 times and each time it measured out at 3.25.

According to cartridges of the world, the only other chambering it could be would be in the Nitro express chambers, and built in 1872, we know it’s not NE. I have researched the 500/450 No1 Express, but the bottleneck on it is much too short.

PM me your cell and I can text you a picture of the cast.

Thanks
Michael

The 500/450 Nitro Express used a case dimensionally the same as the 500/450 3-1/4” black powder express just as the 450 3-1/4”, 500 3” and 450/400 3-1/4” in nitro forms are dimensionally the same as their black powder era predecessors.

I’ll have the brass by Monday hopefully and some bullets from Huvius. Well see how things match up with the brass on Monday and go from there.

So, I got to shoot this DR yesterday. Using loading recommendations from Mike W, it shoots great with about a 4” spread between the barrels. We’re going to play with the powder charge a bit to try to narrow up the prints. The barrels themselves are printing great. It’s a great shooting gun from 1872, and the recoil is nothing. Shooting a 350gr Hornady Interlock, it’s just a piece of cake to shoot.

Many thanks to Cal Pappas and Mike Warren for their help with getting this DR shooting.

Before upping velocity to bring your groups together, try the 300gr Hornadys.
There is a limit as to how much you want to keep loading up and in an old rifle such as this one, I would opt to try a lighter bullet first.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Before upping velocity to bring your groups together, try the 300gr Hornadys.
There is a limit as to how much you want to keep loading up and in an old rifle such as this one, I would opt to try a lighter bullet first.

Very sage advise and the voice of experience.
- Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Before upping velocity to bring your groups together, try the 300gr Hornadys.
There is a limit as to how much you want to keep loading up and in an old rifle such as this one, I would opt to try a lighter bullet first.

Really good advise. I’ll try some of the bullets you sent me as well. Thanks for those by the way.

I hope they work for you.
Let us know.
You will likely need to flare the case mouth a bit more for the PP bullets than you need to for the Hornadys.
There are some good tips here:
http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I hope they work for you.
Let us know.
You will likely need to flare the case mouth a bit more for the PP bullets than you need to for the Hornadys.
There are some good tips here:
http://rbsiii.com/PaperPatchedBullets/index.html

It will be a couple days before I get them loaded and get. To shoot. I’ll let you know.

Thanks.

Some years ago I sold LB-404 who used to post here a Alex Henry 10.75x68, for a nice piece of change, wish I could buy it back for the same price, it was such a nice gun..He shot some Cape Buffalo with it as I did and I heard he sold it some time later..We gun nuts do some stupid things when the green starts floating around in big packages!!