Fellas, I have handled three brands of double rifles in 9,3X74R, the Pedersoli hammer gun, the Sabatti, and a Chapuis that I briefly owned, but did not shoot.
My problem with these guns, especially the Sabatti and the Chapuis, is that they are in fact so small and light that they just don't feel like a serious double.
Now, I know the root of this "problem" is only a figment of my imagination, and that the 9,3 doubles are really the 3-weight fly rods of the double gun world -- light and trim and full of finesse. Still, is there a brand of double in 9,3 in the $5K range that has a bit more heft and perhaps longer barrels?
The thing about the 9,3 is that it is so bloody practical as an all-round gun save for the most dangerous game. If I were to have a single double rifle to a lot of hunt plains game but with one Cape buffalo on the menu, it seems to me the 9,3 makes a lot of sense.
Maybe you guys can talk some sense into me.
Tony, I know what you have accomplished with doubles in this chambering ...

I had a Merkel 140 that was a little larger than most 9.3s. You might see if you can handle one of those.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Fellas, I have handled three brands of double rifles in 9,3X74R, the Pedersoli hammer gun, the Sabatti, and a Chapuis that I briefly owned, but did not shoot.
My problem with these guns, especially the Sabatti and the Chapuis, is that they are in fact so small and light that they just don't feel like a serious double.
Now, I know the root of this "problem" is only a figment of my imagination, and that the 9,3 doubles are really the 3-weight fly rods of the double gun world -- light and trim and full of finesse. Still, is there a brand of double in 9,3 in the $5K range that has a bit more heft and perhaps longer barrels?
The thing about the 9,3 is that it is so bloody practical as an all-round gun save for the most dangerous game. If I were to have a single double rifle to a lot of hunt plains game but with one Cape buffalo on the menu, it seems to me the 9,3 makes a lot of sense.
Maybe you guys can talk some sense into me.
Tony, I know what you have accomplished with doubles in this chambering ...

Bill, I have a 140E-1 S/S Merkel double rifle that weighs in at 8.3 pounds, and is built on the 20ga size action that is my favorite double for North America. It is not ultra light but is heavy enough to feel like a real double rifle, yet is still very lively, and is super accurate! The fly in the ointment is it is no longer made by Merkel, or at least not importrd to the USA. The 141 Merkel is too light for my taste as well, and that is what Merkel is sending to the USA. The best way to get a 140E-1 Merkel 9.3X74R double is find one on the used market, but they don't come cheap compared to other brands, and models of 9.3s. I wouldn't take $10K for mine and do without it.

Bill the 9,3's are a lot lighter and smaller than the 400 and up doubles for sure. This is one of the thingk I like about them, they are a joy to carry, still do not kick to bad and they do hit hard enough to get the job done.

I had a Chapuis UGEX in that caliber. Also have had 2 Valmet's in that caliber.Mounted a Leupold 1.5-5 Vari X III on them all and they all shot better than just good. The Valmets were easily adjustable for different loads and while not the best LOOKING doubles they surely shoot well and I took my 12ga barrels with me to Africa and shot some good birds. While the Chapuis was a literal dream to handle, it made you think you could shoot birds on the wing, it kicked like an ox. The stock was hollowed and I though of filling it with something but it just balanced and swung so good I didn't. I figured I could just take the punishment when shooting game as I NEVER feel recoil then and actually never think about it while hunting, only when shooting from the bench.

I've always thought the 9.3 would be the ultimate cat rifle and have considered buying a Chapuis from one of my law partners for that purpose. I like the "smallness" of the rifle; it's light and fast. I just don't like it when they put a huge European scope on it. Kinda defeats the purpose. (Detachable scope -- ok -- too big is my issue).

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
While the Chapuis was a literal dream to handle, it made you think you could shoot birds on the wing, it kicked like an ox.

NOOOO. It does not. It is a sweet shooting little rifle easily handled by my high school son's girlfriend! It's a pussycat rifle!

Come on man. I know you've said you don't like recoil over a 22LR but really ...

Sorry, I'm just busting your chops!

I think a Merkel 140 is the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
While the Chapuis was a literal dream to handle, it made you think you could shoot birds on the wing, it kicked like an ox.

NOOOO. It does not. It is a sweet shooting little rifle easily handled by my high school son's girlfriend! It's a pussycat rifle!

Come on man. I know you've said you don't like recoil over a 22LR but really ...

Sorry, I'm just busting your chops!

Todd:

This just shows you how subjective recoil can be. I think it's a pussycat too. Last weekend we were out to the range and my friends wife who is a tiny little thing was shooting it without any problem but then her hunting guns are a CZ .458 Win. Mag. and a Ruger No.1 450/400.

I have the answer for you --

check out the link to the Merkel below:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
While the Chapuis was a literal dream to handle, it made you think you could shoot birds on the wing, it kicked like an ox.

NOOOO. It does not. It is a sweet shooting little rifle easily handled by my high school son's girlfriend! It's a pussycat rifle!

Come on man. I know you've said you don't like recoil over a 22LR but really ...

Sorry, I'm just busting your chops!

Todd:

This just shows you how subjective recoil can be. I think it's a pussycat too. Last weekend we were out to the range and my friends wife who is a tiny little thing was shooting it without any problem but then her hunting guns are a CZ .458 Win. Mag. and a Ruger No.1 450/400.

It is intuitive that small, light people receive recoil differently than heavier ones; there is less resistance for the rifle to act upon. So the recipient moves more and distributes the recoil over distance and time. Heavy people form a solid mass with which to absorb the impulse, which tends to transmit more of the recoil energy to the shooter. As for 9.3 recoil, I have fired an old J.P. Sauer, and a Periguini and Visini. Both were quite light and while the actual recoil wasn't too bad, the stock drop at the heel caused them to hit my cheek like George Foreman with a left hook.

This is funny. I have a bunch of rifles and I have been pulling them out of the safe for a good cleaning now that the weather has turned cold. Among those rifles are two 9.3X62s, a Blaser and a CZ, as well as a Chapuis 9.3X74. As I was cleaning the CZ today I smiled to myself because I realized that the 9.3s were the only big game rifles I ever needed. The CZ is the least expensive but it shoots really well with most any bullet, holds five down, and was ready to go right out of the box. Amazing when you think about it.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is intuitive that small, light people receive recoil differently than heavier ones; there is less resistance for the rifle to act upon. So the recipient moves more and distributes the recoil over distance and time. Heavy people form a solid mass with which to absorb the impulse, which tends to transmit more of the recoil energy to the shooter. As for 9.3 recoil, I have fired an old J.P. Sauer, and a Periguini and Visini. Both were quite light and while the actual recoil wasn't too bad, the stock drop at the heel caused them to hit my cheek like George Foreman with a left hook.

I totally agree that a poorly fitting stock can affect perceived recoil. But about the size and weight thing, I'm not really sure how this plays out as obviously the girls Dave and I have described are small and light. I, on the other hand, am 6'2" and 240lbs. I'm not sure a person's size has that much to do with recoil tolerance. Recent practice with the weapon is important in how recoil is perceived and handled. But apart from that, I think a lot of folks like to exaggerate for one reason or another.

When I purchased my son's .375H&H for his 18th birthday, the gunsmith recommended having the scope base mounting holes re-drilled and tapped for larger screws. When I asked why, with my son standing there (who was and is still, always anxious about shooting something larger than he is familiar with), the fellow went on and on about how a 375H&H is one of the hardest kicking rifles ever built and that anyone who shoots it should make sure to have someone behind him to catch him in case it knocks him on his arse, etc., etc.!

Realizing this was causing a problem that I would have to overcome with my son at the range the next day, I finally jumped into this guys chest with both feet and shut that crap down immediately. The guy had never fired a 375 before and had no idea what he was talking about. He was just making up crap and exaggerating on top of the exaggerations he had heard in the past.

When we got to the range, it became a battle of wills to get him to shoot the rifle. I really hate when that happens with my kids but luckily I prevailed without too much drama. Once he fired the rifle, he began laughing and realized that I was right concerning the 375H&H being a piece of cake regarding recoil. He is a tall fellow but weighs about 115lbs soaking wet which is why he hesitates to step up from his comfort zone with recoil. But he has handled that rifle with ease right from the beginning that day. I haven't talked him into stepping up to the 416 Rigby yet but I'm sure he'll handle that rifle well also but I'll probably keep him off the bench with it for awhile once he steps up.

Mac, Biebs: Those of you have or have had Merkel 140s in 9,3 --is there much drop in the Merkel stock?

Yes there is - with a purpose.

140 in 9,3 was never ment to be a range paper punching scoped rifle. It is based on one goal only - fast intuitive shooting on moving game when driven hunting (usualy boars and red deer). For shots over 20m with open sights, or without them (if needed) when closer than 20m.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Yes there is - with a purpose.

140 in 9,3 was never ment to be a range paper punching scoped rifle. It is based on one goal only - fast intuitive shooting on moving game when driven hunting (usualy boars and red deer). For shots over 20m with open sights, or without them (if needed) when closer than 20m.

I agree! Mine has the hog-back stock, and I installed a Pacmeyer Decellarator recoil pad on mine, to adjust the length of pull to suit me. The little rifle is a dream to snapp shoot instinctivly on running game, but is percise when aimed carefully, and useing the set trigger!

As I've said on many posts here and other places, mine is not for sale, and has found a perminate home in my gun vault!

For what it's worth, my Chapuis RGEX in 9.3x74R seems very soft on recoil to me. Maybe that is because I am used to shooting my Searcy .500NE and .470NE doubles so often, or maybe it's because I am just not recoil sensitive......and believe me, my size (5'10" / 265#) allows me to absorb every single foot pound of recoil that my rifles give me. When I see guys out at the range shooting a .270 Win with a muzzle break and wearing a PAST recoil shield to boot, I shake my head in disbelief. Sensitivity to recoil must vary greatly person to person.
Mangwana

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
As I've said on many posts here and other places, mine is not for sale, and has found a perminate home in my gun vault!

"I'll give you mine when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!" those "bloody things" just grow on you indeed

Of course stock fit has a great deal to do with recoil handling, and most of it is due to heel drop and what the recoil does to your face, not your shoulder. And people do have differing levels of pain tolerance, but the physics of recoil transmission to a heavier mass is true. While you absorbed all the recoil in your heavy mass body and liked it, because your heavier mass was harder to start moving, your son's light body was able to move more than yours, thereby absorbing the recoil over a longer distance and time, which didn't hurt him either. I have seen, as you describe, very big fellows grimace in pain at a 270 from the bench, and I have seen light people laugh after shooting my 450 Nitro, but not from leaning into it sitting at a bench. This is why we have 13 inch recoil cycles on our 120mm tank cannons and not fixed mounts. (It also has a big spring in it, but you get the point) Given a long enough distance for recoil to travel, it would diminish to zero foot pounds.

I bought my first SxS double this year, a Merkel 141E in 9.3x74R. From the bench it will get your attention, but I find it quite tame shooting off the sticks. It is a very enjoyable rifle to carry while walking all day. Took a nice fallow with it last week.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
is there much drop in the Merkel stock?

Just measured mine - 8.4 cm or 3.3"

I have shot several different 9,3x74R double rifles.
The 2 lightest were the Heym 26B and the new small framed Merkel.

Both kick less to me than my 375 H&H's.

While I am happy with my Chapuis, and like to hunt with my Blaser D99 Double Rifle Drilling, durring the Texas and Idaho seasons where fur and feathered game is in season at the same time, I am so happy with my "little" Heym 26B in 30/30 I think I might need one in 9,3x74R.

A double rifle in 9,3x74R is one of the best hunting rifles on the Planet, IMHO of course.

I'm really happy for all of you that the 9.3x74r Chapuis doesn't have any recoil. I have owned 3 rifles in my life that were punishing to me and they were that 9.3x74R ( I have owned 3 other 9.3x74r's that did NOT have abusive recoil) a Heym SR20 straight pull carbine in 35 Whelen and a Sako Safari model in 300 Win Mag. I've been building and shooting guns for well over 55 years and I do know what heavy recoil is. I have probably shot everything below 50 calibre that is around. I DON'T like recoil and don't know why any sane person would like any form of physical punishment. I have absolutely no problem benching my favorite 375 H&H, but my 458 Win Mag is another case and I avoid shooting it ,period. I'm 6'1" and weigh 275 lbs and was once in pretty good shape but even when I was younger I did NOT like recoil. I actually feel sorry for those that have to have such abuse to think they are enjoying something.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I DON'T like recoil and don't know why any sane person would like any form of physical punishment.

I actually feel sorry for those that have to have such abuse to think they are enjoying something.

Some guys play football while others play in the band! To each his own.

Zim: I'm not a fan of recoil. My biggest kicker was a Ruger No. 1 in .458 Lott. With some weight in the butt and a Limbsaver, I still had to practically catch the thing. Got rid of it. The .450-400 in a No. 1 is much more manageable. I'm about 5' 10" and 165, the bendy willow type. The guns that have actually hurt me included an old Belgian 12 gauge double with knife edge drop stock and for some reason, the Pedersoli 10-gauge percussion double. I can take quite a few hard shoves/punches to the shoulder, but one or two upper cuts to the cheek bone and I am done. That's why I was asking about drop at heel, although I have had good luck with the hogback stocks on CZ bolt guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
My problem with these guns, especially the Sabatti and the Chapuis, is that they are in fact so small and light that they just don't feel like a serious double.

The reason a DR in 9.3x74R is such a nice DR to own.

In a well balanced side by side, why add un-necessary weight?

We had a rush on hunters with 9.3x74 Merkels a few years ago and they all killed buffalo without any problems..The buffalo did run a bit further than those shot with bigger bores, they performed about like a 9.3x64, 9.3x62, 375 or .338 and thats pretty good company..

They were fun guns to shoot, handy and light, and pointed extremely well. They all Merkel 140s and the hunters used 286 Woodlieghs, 300 gr. swifts and one guy used 320 Woodleighs and they were not going fast enough IMO, but he got his bull..

I would love to have one, but really have no real need so I'm good so far..and I have my new Ruger African in 9.3x62, but its unfired as I have not picked it up yet...I have one in a .338 thats a great gun and probably a better caliber but it has no essence of Africa!